How To Reduce Dog Reactivity Without Guesswork

Reactivity looks loud, but the real story is usually quiet: fear, uncertainty, confusion, and a dog that learned the world only listens when it explodes. We sit down and get specific about what “reactive” actually means, why “aggression” is often misread, and how a dog can seem confident next to its handler while secretly falling apart underneath. If your dog barks at strangers, loses its mind at other dogs, or turns a squirrel into a full-body meltdown, we give you a clearer way to think about the problem and a safer way to start changing it.

We talk threshold training and why sometimes the best progress comes from doing less: holding space, marking calm, and working closer in small rings instead of rushing the dog into failure. We also get into tools the right way, including muzzle training for safety, using an e-collar as communication to break fixation, and why misuse can create redirected aggression and “ghost bites.” Drive capping and impulse control come up too, because a dog that cannot disengage from drive cannot make good choices, even when it “knows” obedience.

Then we shift to a current news story: a police K9 handler under investigation after video appears to show the dog being slammed. We break down why that is unacceptable, what training failure can look like in uniform, and why working dogs deserve real legal and professional accountability. Subscribe for more honest dog training talk, share this with a friend dealing with a reactive dog, and leave a review with your biggest reactivity question.

Transcript

Intro And What Reactivity Means

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the Talk Shit Get Bit Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Parker. I'm your co-host, Chris. And on today's episode, we're going to talk about reducing reactivity. So, best place to start is what constitutes as reactivity, Chris?

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Realistically, it depends on how far you want to break it down. I mean, the industry definition, just the generally accepted term, we're going to look at things like fear reactivity and aggression, things like that. Those are your common scene things. But I mean, if you really want to break it down and get scientific with it, everything is reactivity. If you're walking and your dog looks at a squirrel and then looks back at you, your dog literally, by definition, just reacted to that squirrel. However, I think that it would be relatable to human emotions in that you have healthy emotions and unhealthy emotions. So if the dog looks at an item or an animal or a person or a situation, an environmental situation, and then disengages and looks back at you, or is able to control its impulsiveness, then that's that's healthy. If your dog looks at the squirrel and then just absolutely goes ape, that's unhealthy.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

So that's how I would explain it. Like you said, it's like human emotions. You know, you see something, you're gonna have some generally you're gonna have some type of reaction to that, whether it's excitement, sadness, whatever emotion you experience, that is a reaction. So yeah, you can you can break it down that way. Typically, though, when we're we're training dogs and we're talking about reactivity, we're looking again more towards those negative reactions, right? Things like, like you said, fear or aggression. I don't like using the term aggression because I've met very few dogs that are truly aggressive. Usually it's rooted in something else, right? Like fear, lack of confidence, or or it's a learned behavior. I see this again. I feel like we beat up German shepherds quite a bit, but I see this a lot in German shepherds. Like they're very reactive. Is it because necessary sometimes it's not because they're they're fearful of anything or underconfident, it's just because they're like it it's a learned behavior. And then and again, that's the thing about reactivity, it's kind of a learned behavior, whether it's rooted in fear, lack of confidence, or whatever, uh it it reactivity is something that they they learn. So like dog reactivity, human reactivity, all all of those those different aspects.

Why Reactivity Shows Up As Fear

SPEAKER_01 2:55

But when let's start with, you know, we can start with human reactivity. Yeah, most often when we uh encounter or I encounter a dog that is human reactive, a lot of times it's it's rooted in fear or uncertainty, which kind of comes into that that confidence. They don't have the confidence in people. I I kind of they're kind of separate, but I would kind of put that in the confidence sector, right? And and then, you know, in some situations, especially German shepherds, it's just like they're like, hey, I just bark at people, and and nobody tells them no. And so they're like, okay, cool, this is what we do. But how do we stop reactivity? I I think that's that's the big the the biggest question there is okay, well, like my dog reacts to people, it reacts to dogs, it reacts to squirrels or whatever it is. And you know, I know before we went live, we live we talked, we were kind of talking about that, how anything can constitute as reactivity, anything's a reaction, and you see the the example of a squirrel, like if our dog reacts at a squirrel, it is it because it's scared or whatever. No, I think that ties back into that that drive that you were talking about that before we went live, the drive capping, so that you know, squirrels, other animals, even sometimes people ignite that prey drive within the dog. And you know, you you talked on a couple previous episodes about drive capping, and that plays a role when it comes to reactivity as well.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Yeah, absolutely. And real quick, just to hit on the uh, because I've I've made a I've made a a deduction on our topic of the German Shepherd. So labs labs rate higher on the bite, like the the incidental bite rating versus shepherds, and it's not because necessarily they're more prone to bite, it's because of a combination of one, people underestimate them based on visual appearance and and social portrayal, and two, it the fact that there's more of them in the homes because people have taken them in more so than German Shepherds. With us, I think the reason we pick on German Shepherds so much is because the type of clients that we draw in traditionally, like yes, I train Dotsons, yes, I train shitzeys, yes, I train Yorkis. But I would say a good 80 to 85 percent of the clients that we work with are German Shepherds, Dutch Shepherds, Belgian Malamois. So we get to experience that more than anything. So when we speak on this on these podcast episodes, we're giving raw content, not just based on fact, but also our theory and our opinion, and based out of our experiences. Most of our experiences have related to German shepherds and that type of dog, because that's what people are drawn to. We we're we're handlers and we work with working dogs, so it comes back to us in the fold. But to get back to that, yeah, I mean, I agree. Drive capping is essential and it kind of ties back into the unhealthy versus healthy reaction. You know, there's there's times to be angry, there's times not to be angry when you're a person on dogs. I think reactivity a lot of times, as far as which we're gonna kind of broadly define reactivity as the commonly viewed forms of reactivity, the aggression, the fear aggression, the anxiety, and most of the times they are triggered by things such as anxiety or life confidence, like you said. And I think that it affects drives a lot, and there's several ways to approach behavior modification, and we we base it specifically off of that individual dog, not every dog's treated the same because not every dog needs the same thing, right? Some dogs need that confidence boost, some dogs need that drive cap. Dogs, not only are we talking about prey drive that will create reactivity issues, but defense drive. And then if you mix a lack of confidence with a heightened defense drive, you end up with fear aggression. And lower confidence leads to shelter seeking, which leads to usually owners reinforcing and marking that behavior as a positive thing, and they do it inadvertently, they don't mean to, they don't know what they're doing, and that's fine. That's what that's why we exist, so we can work with people to fix those things.

Protective Drive And Handler Leadership

SPEAKER_00 8:01

But another one that goes unnoticed or overlooked a lot is the fact that dogs are the only animal that possess and display what's called a protective drive, and that means that a dog will intentionally place itself in direct physical or mental or emotional harm or discomfort in defense of a human, and a lot of times that lack of the lack of communication and the the lack of understanding between you and your dog can relate to that. If your dog values you and your dog thinks that this is his job because you have failed to be a leader in that role, if you haven't given that dog the reason to look at you with respect and say, this is the person I follow, if you're not the pack leader, that dog thinks it's his job to become the pack leader, and that can activate that protective drive at inappropriate times.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

I I love the fact that you said that because this is a conversation that we have quite a bit. And, you know, I don't know how many times I've heard like, oh, my dog's protective. And I'm like, I, you know, we evaluate the dog and I'm like, your dog's not protective. Your dog is underconfident, maybe fearful, and the behavior that is misperceived as protection is rooted in that fear or underconfidence. And a lot of times what we see is I I call it uh, you know, perceived confidence in the dog, right? Like the dog gets this false confidence when it's around its handler, so it acts nasty and like it's gonna do something and it ties directly back into what you said and you just said is the that handler is not taking the lead, right? That dog is reacting that way because it doesn't have the trust and confidence in its handler to look out for them. This is why we are such huge advocates of advocating for your dog.

Advocacy Stops Accidental Reinforcement

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Like if my dog doesn't like people or it doesn't like other dogs, which is completely fine. I don't like everybody I meet, you know. Like, I don't want somebody coming up and touching me that I don't know. Like, if somebody came up and touched me that I didn't know, I'm probably gonna punch them in the throat or the face or something, right? Or tell them to fuck off. Our dogs can't tell people to fuck off. Their reaction is to growl, bite, or whatever at them. And this kind of ties back into like protection dogs. Our dogs take feedback. So if that dog is uncomfortable and then it comes to like snarling, growling, or lunging, barking, or heaven forbid, gets to the point where it's biting out of fear or underconfidence, guess what most people do in those situations? They retreat, and that is direct feedback to that dog that says, Oh shit, if I'm uncomfortable in this situation, if I act nasty, again, whether that's growling, barking, lunging, or even biting, people go away. So we're reinforcing those habits, kind of the opposite, similar, but opposite of when we're working protection dogs. Like I give that dog feedback when I'm working a protection dog, but it's in building confidence and teaching them like, hey, that's how you act. Those dogs that lack confidence or are fearful, they're learning that because of people's reactions. Sometimes that's not any fault of the handler. Uh, you know, I can't entirely fault the handler because they don't know any better. They're not dog trainers like you and I. Like, that's not what they do for a living. They don't intentionally make their dog that way. They just don't know how to not allow those behaviors to develop. But again, it it's learned. And then that dog now is quote, protective, end quote. But in reality, they are just looking out for themselves. And and again, I would put that responsibility, like you said, on the handler, because that handler is not communicating effectively. They're not advocating appropriately for their dog. Like if I know my dog doesn't like people touching it, I'm not gonna let somebody come up and touch it. It is my job to that's part of that relationship building, is my dog has to trust me. It has to know that, hey, even though I don't like people, I don't need to act nasty because I know dad is going to fucking protect me. He's gonna keep those people from coming up to me, or he's gonna keep that dog from coming up to me. Again, that's where advocac advocacy plays a huge role. Now, to that point, you know, like like what you were saying is is shit. I lost it, but like it, you know, it comes down to the that that underconfidence or or fear, and then they get that misperceived misconceived, like false confidence in their handler. And like so many times we see these dogs and they act really nasty, and I'll be we'll be like, hand me your leash. And the owner's like, Are you sure? I'm like, Yeah. And the moment I take them away from their handler, guess what? That dog is scared as can be. They're not trying to lunge and bite at sometimes, but most of the time, they're not trying to lunge and bite at me. They're like, I don't know what to do. And it's because they get that conf false confidence from their handler, but again, that kind of ties back to that that handler isn't handling the situation appropriately. And it's like in the name, right? Like you're a handler, so you're supposed to handle the situations, but people aren't handling the situations right.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yeah, absolutely. And that's that's something that needs we constantly address.

Case Study Under-Socialized Cane Corso

SPEAKER_00 14:04

So, for example, today, which I sent you the video earlier. Let me put that dog. Yeah, let me put that dog. I'm working a behavioral modification case right now with a female cane corset. What happened was the dog was acquired at an appropriate age. All the other dogs in that litter, I've I've touched space with the kennel, I've talked to the breeder, all the other dogs, he keeps track of them. They're doing really well, no behavioral issues, no behavioral issues out of any of his other litters. It just so happened that this specific dog ended up with a medical issue when it was young. And the veterinarian's advice was shelter in place. Don't let the dog go out, don't let the dog go to public, don't let the dog interact with people or other animals. And it wasn't anything major, it was just like some small gastro issues. And and I understand, I understand the vet's perspective as far as reducing stressful environment on the dog, but at the same time, this happened during its critical stages of development right at the exact time that socialization is critical. So this dog is under-socialized, which has created handler dependency, anxiety, and lack of confidence. So when the owner and I watched one of the things that I explained on on the video, we we film document pretty much everything we do. One, it's good content. Two, it allows us when a handler or an owner takes the dog back and they're like, hey man, you didn't do nothing with my dog. We have video evidence that we did. It's not an us issue, it's a it's a relationship issue here, and that's why we're a part of your your day. You need to be able to fix that. So trust the process, let it go. So it's it's more of a content and liability thing. Plus, I'm not gonna lie to you, like even with the the education and the training and the experience that I have acquired over the the years, it it really helps to be able to look back, especially if I'm struggling with a specific dog, and I'm like, man, I just can't figure this out. I'll go back and watch other videos that I've made during behavioral cases, and I'll notice things. I'll pick things up. I'm like, you know what? I didn't even put that piece together. Or I'll watch a video that I made with that dog and I'm like, ooh, I missed that earlier, and I'm able to adjust from there. So we talked about that during maintenance records, the same thing. Hey, let me see your training logs, let me see your notes so we can troubleshoot. It's just as important to be able to troubleshoot yourself. For example, this morning, or so right now it is 11 o'clock at night. Last night I went to bed about midnight, midnight 30, woke up at 3:30, drove from Georgia, Kentucky. I've been working dogs all day long, I've been running searches all day long. I've been doing bite work with my own dog all day, and it's 11 o'clock at night, and we're recording the podcast now, which I'm grateful for the opportunity to do. But once you hit a certain point, because I've got to be back up at 3:30 in the morning again tomorrow. Once you hit a certain point, your your brain starts to slow down. So it helps to be able to document this stuff and look back and be like, okay, cool, this is what happened. Because guess what? That dog's gonna be back tomorrow. Yep. And right now, because of the things that have happened over the course, the phase that we're in is just getting the dog comfortable with me in its space. So we're working through what we've discovered is barrier aggression on top of everything else. So I've got a 140-pound two-year-old female cane corset growling and snarling and slobbering all over my face, about an inch and a half away from its kennel through the gate. And I have to be able to articulate what I'm doing in the process. And I have to understand and be understanding. So my point that I'm getting to with that is am I scared? Is it scary? Yeah, absolutely, man. I don't trust these crates. What are you talking about? That's a big dog for me to be sticking my face right up because that bite hurts too, man. Yeah, and that bite is gonna hurt, but I know enough about dogs and I understand enough about this situation that I can do it safely and I can control the outcome of that situation. And even if she does get out of that crate, like you said, it it's not true raw aggression, it's fear, it's it's a lack of confidence. So the difference between a bite, an aggressive bite, like we train with our dogs, and a fear bite, more often than not, a fear bite is gonna be a nip. It's gonna be real shallow, it's gonna be quick, it's gonna be fast, it's gonna withdraw. And that is because they're trying to get you away, they're not trying to hurt you. They're just kind of like snakes. Yeah, it's kind of like you know, you're talking to the wrong dude at the bar, and you're like, Man, I really don't want to fight this guy, but I also don't want to back down. I'm gonna let him know what's up real quick, and you just jab him in the jaw real quick. Tink, and then you kind of back up and reassess that situation. Like, did I just fuck up? So probably. Yeah, probably. So when we when we look at that, those are things that I kind of break down in my own mind. So, do I want to withdraw? You know, at points, I've got to be able to time it right to be able to mark the calm moments. So I've got my hand right there by that crate. One wrong move on my side, I'm losing a finger. Yep. So we have to be able to focus and stay calm under that. And it's no different when the dog comes out of that crate. Tomorrow we're gonna try to work to a point to where we can get the dog out of the crate and handle the dog. But I watched the dog's behavior and reaction when the owner pulled back in, and just the sight of the truck, the dog did something that it didn't do the entire day. It growled, it snarled, it barked, it lunged, it snapped, it slobbered everywhere, it shook the crate, it shook the SUV the crate was in. It did everything it could to make it seem make itself seem tough. As soon as that owner's vehicle pulled on property and was in sight, all of that went away and the dog began to whine. The dog began to whine, the dog began to cry, the dog began to pant harder, started turning in its crate, started pacing back and forth in the crate. It was a completely different dog, and it that anxiety portion of it really came to the surface. So that's one of the things that we told him. We we called it. We were like, hey, this is gonna happen. The dog's super, super dependent on you for its confidence, and she needs to realize that because she wasn't socialized during those critical critical stages, she needs to realize that the world's not here to hurt her, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Yeah, I mean, you brought up some really good points throughout that and try to recap on some of those really good points that I wanted to highlight. Dude, like we video pretty much every training session, whether it's again for social media content, you know, show progress of the dogs, to show the owners the progress of the dogs. But I I'm much like you, like I like to look back and be like, oh, I mean like you said, I missed this sign in that dog, or or more so, it's all about self-improvement. Like, oh damn, I timed that wrong. Oh, I messed that up. And yes, we just admit it that we are trainers, we are human, we make mistakes. Even dog trainers make mistakes when it comes to training dogs, but it's constantly improving yourself. But like we we do this all the time that we can read those signs very quickly. And in some cases, you know, I can listen on the phone to somebody telling me what's going on with their dogs. And a lot of times it's my dog's aggressive. And I'm like, well, what's your dog doing? And then they tell me, and even just listening to how the owner describes it, which mind you, the owner does not have training experience, and they don't look at things the way that you and I do. I can decipher through what that owner says, hey, it's most likely your dog is fearful or your dog lacks confidence, or maybe it's a combination of both. And then I'll be like, hey, let's we need to do a consultation so I can tell for sure. And I'm I'm gonna tell you nine times out of ten, exactly what I tell the owner is exactly what's going on because we've we've had that kind of practice that we can hear what's going on and we can kind of get a really good gauge, but we're really good at reading those dogs. And yeah, uh we just went through this with a dog that comes to our veteran group class. Just so happened they were the only ones that showed up yesterday for the veteran group class, and we're like, hey, like this dog is very scared, like uncomfortable with the people that are there. And we're like, hey, we're gonna take your dog and we're gonna work with your dog during this training session. And we were able to make so much progress in that hour of training with that dog because that that dog was undersocialized. It missed that socialization period. Now, luckily, this dog isn't aggressive and isn't gonna try to bite us, though we deal with that a lot. So that's kind of like always a thought in the back of our minds like I might get bit, but you know, we were able to I again teach that dog some how to be independent from its handler for an hour. And at first, like you could tell it was very uncomfortable for that dog, and we're like, no, you sit right here, sit right here in the middle of the room by yourself, away from your handler, and but also at the same time teaching that dog that we're not here to hurt you, we're not gonna do anything bad to you. And you know, kind of like what I told him, I was like, listen, most people, especially if you don't have training experience, they fuck this up. Like, and most of the time unintentionally in how they react. Like if the dog, you know, people will push the dog too far. If you push the dog too far, that's where you get those fear bites or you know, those those negative reactions, or you retreat and now you reinforce those bad behaviors. You and I, and you know, us that handle behavioral cases, we know exactly how far we can push that dog without pushing them too far, right? Because you have to push them to the boundaries, but we don't want to push them too much, right? Like we don't want them to fold, we don't want to cause those negative behaviors, but we want to push that comfort because they most of the time they're not okay with being dis being uncomfortable, and they just rely on that that handler. Now, with that said, too, like again, we both work with dogs that will bite the shit out of us. And I'm sure you have been bit multiple times, just as I have. And again, we're really good at not getting bit, but there's been times that I have been bit and it hurt like a motherfucker. But guess what? I can't do I can't withdraw because again, that's reinforcing that bad that that negative behavior, and that's really hard to have that impulse to you get bit and it doesn't feel good to not withdraw, but most people would, and and again, it's like we have to show that dog, like, hey, getting being nasty doesn't get you what you want, and and there's that delicate balance of like don't act that way. I'm not gonna tolerate you acting nasty, but also I'm gonna show you respect. Like, I understand that this doesn't this makes you very uncomfortable and you don't like this, but that that's where building that trust and that relationship with that dog to where there's that mutual understanding that I know you don't like this, but you don't get to act that way, but I'm also gonna respect that you don't appreciate that. And it's finding that delicate balance. And, you know, unless you really have that kind of canine experience, it can be very hard to understand where that very, very fine line is. It's like a knife's blade. Like, you know, you you you you come over that too much, and that situation went wrong. It's it's very delicate when it comes to working through those behavioral issues.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Yeah, and if you do cross that line, you're gonna backslide significantly, and that that's why it is so cru so crucial. And again, that that kind of touches back to what we've talked about before. Like dog training is an unregulated field. You don't have to be certified. But if you're gonna be dealing with a situation like this, you really need to do your research and vet your trainer, make sure that they have experience with this, these kind of situations before you say, Yes, let's do that. So I want to say something on that real quick, too.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Like, I mean, if you're watching this on video, you can see the 1700 freaking you know uh diplomas and certificates behind Chris. I don't have any. So Laura, you know, my co-owner, she has she went to school. I didn't. I learned on the job, which I've also and again, it's not regulated, but you know, if you looked at certification, I have certifications, I have experience. My experience has come from dealing with that. Now, did I just go out and immediately start working with reactive dogs? No, I built up to that. I started with basic obedience, then hey, maybe some dog reactivity, and then you know, built up to where I can handle those most difficult dogs. But again, it it comes from that experience. And granted, I've only got under slightly under three years of experience. I've worked with hundreds of dogs in that time, and most of them are with these behavioral issues, and it's with that experience that you get it. And, you know, you can go to in just because your trainer has a a certificate saying that they went to school for that doesn't mean that they have that experience. Because I've seen trainers that have gone to school to deal with these type of dogs, and they're not good at handling that situation. You know, it's it's kind of one of those things you either got it or you don't.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Right, absolutely. And that's that's why I that's what I was saying. It's very important to to vet and check to make sure that they have the experience, not necessarily the certification. So one of the things that I I've talked about before, not just on the podcast, but like with me and you personally offline in some of my social media posts with my clients, you know, in the in the book that I'm doing. I mentioned like the the certificates aren't I I don't have them to be able to slap out there and be like, boom, that's it. I know everything. This is why. They were a gateway of theory. So for me, being able to understand the theory allowed me the opportunity and confidence in myself to be able to go through and gain the experience. Much like you, I'm very much a hands-on, get in the field, learn how to do it yourself kind of person. But you need to be able to make sure a client who's dealing with something like this needs to communicate with the trainer and say, not just, oh, what's wrong? Because someone who went to school can tell you what's wrong, but can they fix it? You're right. It is either you either have this skill or you don't. You can either work with reactive dogs or not. Behavior modification is a niche, and you don't have to just do that, but you definitely have to have the skills and abilities to address it.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Yeah, there's a difference between between recognizing what's going on. Like I can look at your dog and say, Oh, yeah, your dog's reactive because of fear, or your dog is underconfident. The the next step is, well, here's the steps to build that confidence, here's that steps to reduce that fear. And we we could spend a whole long time talking about how that process works in both situations, but there's a difference in knowing what's wrong and being able to fix what's wrong.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Yeah, and that's people need to make sure that the the trainer that they're working with has the ability and has the the capabilities and experience of doing it before they bring their

Threshold Training And Marking Calm

SPEAKER_00 31:15

dog. So one of the things I had working with that corso today, I had one of my co-owners for the the pet side of things, Amity, with me. And I had one of our clients that happens to just shadow like a lot, they're they're just here all the time. So they were with me when I was doing the the sessions, and I would do about 10 or 15 minute sets, and then I'd give about a 10 or 15 minute break, and then I would re-engage. And they were astounded by the progress that was made in like two hours. So the original approach, the very first time, dog was trying to break through the crate to come through it. Everything she had, she was smashing up against it, she was snarling everywhere. You're right, you can't withdraw because that reinforces that behavior. You're giving them what they want, they do those things so you back up and get out of that space. But at the same time, the way that, and this is what I was explaining to them earlier, and what I had to explain to the client, because the client was like, So, what would you did the dog just hang out in the crane today and y'all just kind of just sat there with it? Yes, that's exactly what happened. Guess what's gonna happen tomorrow? The same thing, and he's like, Well, why am I paying for that? Okay, well, would I mean would you like to do it? You you came here for help. This is the these are the steps, this is the process. Trust the process. If the dog is not comfortable with me, I cannot work with your dog. So, with that being said, to get the dog comfortable with me in its space, within a two-hour window of doing those rotations, I went from you can't get within six, seven feet of the crate before the dog is absolutely losing it. And at the end of those sessions, I was sitting up against the crate with my face leaning damn near on the crate. My hands were moving, I was animated, I was able to talk next to the dog, I was able to wave my hands around the dog, I was brushing my hands up against the crate. Being able to have that respect, one, the dog realized that behavior is not gonna get me to leave, but I will respect your body language and I will respect your efforts and not continue to advance until you calm down. So I will sit here, I'm not leaving, but I'm not I'm not gonna come closer either. I'll hang out right here. Thank you. When she calmed down, good girl, yes. And I'd move a little closer. Oh, we were you're you're freaking out again? Perfect. I'm gonna hang out right here. And that's that threshold training. So I'm working rings closer and closer and closer. One of the one of the lead instructors, when I went through school, and I told them the story earlier, too. I came out one day and he was just sitting in the middle of the field in a fold-out chair with this great dane that was reactive. I'm like, what are you doing? He said, I'm training this dog. So you're not training a dog, you're sitting in a fold out chair. How are you training a dog sitting in a fold out chair? And that was a realization moment for me. He said, Listen, sometimes the best dog training is doing absolutely nothing. And it goes back to what you said earlier, like, hey, we're gonna let you have the independence to hang out in your own space and realize that you you can do this and do this safely and calmly. And that's exactly what he was doing. He was sitting in an area where there was traffic, people are moving around, people are going by, not too close, but not too far, and he was working that threshold. About 20 minutes, he'd stand up, move his chair, sit back down. And that dog was put into a position where it had to rely on itself for comfort. So that is a process that we go through. Again, tomorrow we will more than likely be doing the exact same thing. Hopefully, towards the end of the day, we'll be able to get the dog out of the crate, be able to get some hands on. But as it stands right now, if I stick my hand in that crate to snatch up that that leash, I hope you don't want that finger. Exactly. She's she's gonna bite me. So I have to be able to respect that that beast, just like I expect her to respect me and my needs, my communication. I

When Clients Skip Homework

SPEAKER_00 35:35

need to listen to her. So going through it reminded me of a of a funny client that I dealt with when you said, Hey, you know, sometimes you get bit and you just have to kind of take it. Sometimes that's what it takes to break that that drive out of that dog. So I had a client dog that was resource guarding the owner and the home. Dog was at the training facility, dog was fantastic. In public, fantastic. Go to that dog's house, that dog would try to eat you alive. You go near the couch where the uh the elderly woman hung out, dog would come straight after you and chase you across to the front door. So worked this dog for one-on-one sessions probably like 12 weeks. We would make minuscule, just microscopic progress. Unfortunately, they were not in a position to do a board and train, which left us with the only option of being able to even make an effort of helping being the one-on-one packages. So, with that, she wasn't doing her homework, like I asked. We've touched on that before, too. I can tell when you don't do your homework. Oh, yeah. Because if you do what I've asked you to, and that process, you get that thousand reps in when I'm not there, it's gonna have an impact. And she wasn't doing it, and she'd flat out tell me, she was like, Yeah, no, I didn't do that. I'm not, I don't have the energy for that. I'm tired. Look, okay, cool. So, what I ended up having to do was put the bite suit on, and this is an embarrassing story. So I had to put the bite suit on. Isn't it chihuahua? Yeah, close. Put the bite suit on, walk into the house, pressure the dog into an uncomfortable situation, allow the dog to just absolutely attempt to maul me, allow the dog to realize that that was gonna gain zero reaction from me. And then the dog realized was like, oh shit, well, that didn't work. I actually put teeth on him, I bit him, and he didn't even flinch. I didn't flinch because I had bite suit pants on. So once that took effect, we didn't have any more issues out of this shihtzu. It was oh shih tzu.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Oh, I was I was close.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Yeah, listen, dude, it was rowdy. That was the I've messed with full-blown Dutch shepherds that did not have the the drive and energy that this animal had. It was like a rabid guinea pig.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

Don't sleep on them shihtzus, man.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Dude, it was wild. But and and that's what it took. And I felt I felt goofy, man. I I felt really silly walking into that house with bite suit pants on, competition bite suit pants, and just letting this dog tear me up. But guess what? That's what at the end of the day, that's what the dog needed. Yep, that's what that was the communication that was effective for the dog, and that's what I'm gonna apply.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

And and you know, to to the to that point, like if we have dogs that are human or reactive, like we will teach the owner how to condition it to a muzzle, and it'll come. We we don't do sessions with behavior modification, and and for the exact reason that you just said, people not doing their homework. And again, my time is value very valuable. I'm not trying to do the same shit every week with you. Like, I'm here to help fix your dog and get it to the place that you want it to be. So we only offer boot camps for reactive dog. Maybe if it's a dog reactive dog and I can tell that the owner's gonna actually do the homework, we we will do that. But like, especially if it's like a human reactive dog, I'm like, no, like it needs to come for a boot camp because then it's got that consistency for that that whole six weeks. Very, very rarely do we do an eight-week. There's only been two dogs that have come through that were like, this dog actually needs eight weeks, you know. Usually it's six weeks, like again, because we have that experience and we're able to take that dog from where it's at to where it needs to be in that time. But what that's one of those conditions. If your dog is human reactive, you're gonna, I'm gonna teach you how to condition it to a muzzle, and it's coming in a muzzle, and that's a a lot of like what you said, teaching it the boundaries. Like you can act nasty, but guess what? You have a muzzle on, so you can't actually fuck me up. And it kind they kind of learned that and very similar to like what what you do, like I'm not gonna do shit. I'm not really gonna ask the dog for anything, but I'm gonna teach it that we can coexist in that same space without you being nasty. I'm gonna respect your space and you're gonna respect mine, because respect is a two-way street. You want me to respect your your needs, then you need to respect me too, right? Like, I understand that people make you uncomfortable. I'm not gonna push the envelope, but you're gonna show me some respect in return.

Tools Muzzles Prongs E-Collars

SPEAKER_01 40:40

And and that's that's that aspect is like it it has to be a two-way street, and there has to be that that understanding there, which that kind of ties into you know, another aspect I want to talk about, using appropriate tools to work on that reactivity. Now, we're talking the extreme cases, the the human reactive, which personally is probably the in my personal opinion, is the most extreme forms of reactivity. Uh, and and we're talking like, you know, again, there's there's levels to this shit, right? Like, there's levels to dog reactivity, you know, there and and that can be as simple as a dog that gets excited about other dogs and starts whining or barking out of excitement to a dog that's like, I'm gonna tear that other dog up. And and the same with people reactivity to like I'm unsure, so I'm gonna bark, maybe I'm gonna lunge to the like extreme where like I'm gonna tear you up if you come in my space. So there's different levels of that reactivity that we're we're gonna take into account, but using appropriate tools to counteract and reduce that that reactivity, and you know, obviously in extreme cases, muzzles, and and we can use those for dog reactivity or people reactivity, and just to kind of give a couple examples of how I'm gonna use that. I mean, I just talked about you know, dogs that want to try to eat me. You're putting a muzzle on because guess what? Come at me. Guess what I'm not gonna do? Like, I'm not gonna flinch, I'm not gonna leave your space. It still hurts when they punch me with that muzzle, trust me. If you've never been muzzle punched, I'm gonna tell you, it doesn't feel good either, but it feels a lot better than getting some teeth sink into you. I can use that with dog reactive dogs, right? Like we have some really solid dogs, like my protection dog, for example. She she's a female unspayed, she has that motherly instinct, just she's very good at giving a fair correction to a dog. Like she'll put them in their place very fairly. Now, again, if a dog comes at her super sideways, she's gonna respond fairly and she's gonna put it in check, be like, hey, dude, don't do that. And so we can use a muzzle for those interactions as well. So that dog's not tearing up my dog, but my dog can give it that fair correction and say, hey, that's not how you play. That's not how you interact with other dogs. Or, you know, even before that point, because that's kind of like the later stages of that, right? Like, I have to get that dog used to like seeing another dog first and then getting, you know, building up closer and closer to where they can kind of be in that same space. I'm not just gonna be like, here, play with my dog, right? Like, I'm we're building up to that, but then you know, those first few interactions, yeah, that dog's gonna have a muzzle on so that it doesn't try to tear up one of our friendly dogs that's gonna help it learn those those behaviors. But it's all about creating all around, and this is something we didn't talk about with with the reactivity, is it's all about creating those positive interactions, whether it's with people or with dogs or whatever it is that they're afraid of or underconfident about. We have to build those positive interactions and give them a positive view. You know, it's like that somebody like, all right, we'll use relationships, right? Like somebody's in a bad relationship and it goes super terrible. Terribly south, and they're like, screw relationships, dude, screw guys. I don't want anything to do with guys. I don't want anything to do with girls. Then somebody comes along and paints a paint, a positive example of what that should look like. You're like, all right, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe the same, maybe, maybe it ain't that bad. And you get another, you know, you start building those positive interactions, and you're like, oh, okay, maybe it's not that bad. Maybe there is hope. It's the same with the dogs. Like, okay, maybe dogs aren't bad. Maybe people aren't bad. And building those positive interactions. But as far as like other tools, one thing that we found, especially with like dog reactive dogs, the e-collar. And the the way that we teach e-collar is using it as communication. It's like, I'm sure you're like me, dude. Like you can you fixate on shit. And when you fixate on something, like say we see something that we think suspicious, both being vets, you know, we're like hypervigilant and we see something, we fixate on it, or we have hearing issues, so there's noise going on, I can't really hear you. You can talk to me all you want. You can tell me whatever you need to say, but I'm not going to hear you. So that's where you come up and you tap somebody on the shoulder, right? It's the same with the dogs. If they're fixating on another dog and they got that tunnel vision and they're focused, I can tell that dog to sit. I can try to redirect that dog in whatever way I want as many times as I want. And odds are that dog doesn't hear me at all. So that's where we we use the e-collar and using the e-collar as a as communication to where it's like me just tapping you on the shoulder, Chris. Like, hey, bud, hey, maybe the little tap doesn't work, so I'm gonna tap a little harder. I'm gonna tap a little harder until I get you to snap out of it. And then you're like, huh? And then I can tell you what I was trying to say, right? So using the e we have found tremendous success, especially in reactive dogs, using and and this applies to like fearful or underconfident dogs, like they're overstimulated by the situation or the environment, and using that e-collar to get through to them when they're like freaking out or they're you know hyperfixated on something, I can tap that e-collar and they understand that that means I want their attention, and now I have their attention. So using that, using leashes like prongs or slip leashes, you know, using them effectively and appropriately, I can use all of these different tools to appropriately reduce and and change that reactivity, right? And and and again, but but then again, like it's all founded in trust, respect, and relationship.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Yep. So and I'm glad I'm glad that you brought that up.

E-Collar Communication Versus Punishment

SPEAKER_00 46:50

So we've discussed previously that there's different ways to utilize an e-collar, and this is why it's another shining example why experience is so important because it is some things until you actually live them, you you get your hands on them. There's no explaining it. You can read the theory, you can learn the theory, you can understand the logic behind it, the who, what, when, where, why, how, but until you feel it, you're not gonna understand. And you have to be one, in order to utilize those tools, you have to go through the steps and you have to understand and and get that respect. So you have to be at that point first. Second, the dog has to understand without the outside stimulus what that tool means. So if you don't do that, especially with a prong or a slip or a choke, or if you use the e-collar on a higher level where it's an aversive versus a communication, you are gonna you're gonna get what's what we call a ghost bite. And that's where it's and especially with dogs that have dog reactivity or animal reactivity.

Avoiding Redirected Aggression And Ghost Bites

SPEAKER_00 48:05

So if that dog is fixated on another dog and you have not explained what that e-collar means, or the dog doesn't have clear communication, understanding what that prong means, and then all of a sudden you reach pop and you hit the e-collar or you pop that that prong collar, there's about a 90% chance that dog in its mind is just going to automatically assume that you just confirmed that dog is a threat, and that dog created that pressure and created that sensation on its neck by doing an attack or an act of aggression towards it, and it's going to lash. So or to that point redirecting. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

And if that dog doesn't understand it, that's where you get re redirecting, and that's where that handler aggression comes in.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

Yep. And that's why it's so important to be able to acclimate to that. You have to build up to that. You can't just so and the reason I broke that down is because I don't want any, I don't ever want our listeners uh or our followers to be misled or to feel misled by us. So do not think that if you wake up one day or if you go to the shelter and you pick up Scuttles, the the shelter dog, and you bring it back, and then next week you find out it's doggeractive, you can't just throw an e-collar or a pinch collar on that dog, take it to the dog park, wait for it to fixate, and then yoke the dog's head off. You can't. It's either gonna go after the other dog or it's gonna turn around and eat you. You're correct.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

So you have to or or the opposite. Now it's you just made that it more scared or underconfident because if it is a confidence, yeah, and if it's a confidence issue, you're gonna shut that dog down.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

Yeah, and that's where that's where the drive capping comes in as well. So

Drive Capping For Real Impulse Control

SPEAKER_00 49:51

drive capping, I had to do drive capping on on Cooley. So drive capping relates to being able to control the dog when it's 100%, when it's at that red line. So Cooley, for example, titration goes both ways. You can over-titrate a dog negatively, you can over-titrate a dog positively. So, negatively, an example would be you correct the dog too hard or too much, it shuts the dog down, the dog just completely quits, doesn't want to do anything, just just completely goes out of it. Positive uh bypassing the titration on a positive level is something that would interfere with the training. For example, Cooley, he is an absolute nutcase for the ball. And for a while before I started doing drive capping, he would not listen. If you had a ball out, he would not focus on you. Period. Did not matter what you were doing. I got one of those, and and he knows he knows all of his commands, so I could have that ball up and I'd say foos, and he would just completely ignore me, or he would like spin in a circle and just take his best guess at what was going on, what I was saying, because like you said, he's he's fixated, he can't hear me, he's zoned out, he's tunnel vision. But if you put the ball away, he knows you have it, he knows that you're the gatekeeper for that resource, you're gonna provide that portion of the economy to him. You put that ball away, you say foos, he's like, Okay, cool. I know that one. Boom, he snaps to a heel, you reward him. Now he's figured that game out. Once we start working drive capping, the way that I did it, same thing, threshold training. So I would put the ball down in the field and we would do obedience around the ball. After we got done doing obedience around the ball, we would move a little closer, then a little closer, then a little closer. If he started reacting towards the ball or trying to lunge and get the ball, not a problem. We're gonna move back out to the ring that we were just working. We're gonna work it a little bit longer and try to play into it and work into it to get closer until he realizes, oh shit, I'm actually closer to that ball than I thought, and I'm still engaged and having fun. I didn't need that. So it starts to cap me as being more valuable than the ball. That ended up turning into now I can put the ball on the floor directly at our feet, and I can actually toe in a circle around the ball and keep him in a heel. So I'll sidestep, I'll turn, foos, boom, he snaps to a heel. I'll take another step, foos, boom, he heals. And we'll do three or four circles around the ball, and then out of nowhere, yes, boom, and he'll look, he just picked his head up. I'll say, I'll say the Y word, and he'll snap and go get it, or I'll hey a port, boom, and he'll go get the ball. So doing that has branched and affected so many other things. It's affected our relationship, it's intensified it, it's clarified our communication, it's still it's solidified me as the gatekeeper, and it's improved everything. It's improved our detection work, it's improved our our bite work. It's really, it's really helped, and everything is connected when you start talking about dogs.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

Yeah, and you know, a couple things on like what you said, like I I would say like impulse control is another term for like what you're doing. Like they have that high drive for the ball, teaching them impulse control. Like, hey, just because the ball's there doesn't mean you get a disengage with me and go get it, uh, which applies to a squirrel, a rabbit, another dog, a person, whatever it might be. Teaching them that impulse control, I would say that falls under drive capping. But also, like it's funny because I had to do the same thing with Padme. I went about it differently than you did, similar, but very but different, right? Different process to get there. And part of my process was teaching her that the ball's not actually the reward, like I'm the reward, right? So, like she does the thing, I give her the ball, I tug with her with the ball. So now, like, yes, I can give her the ball, she loves the ball, but she is just as rewarded from me telling her yes or free or whatever or good job, you know, to where like getting that affection from me is more valuable than the ball. And you know, if she gets the ball, guess where she brings it? Straight to me because I'm the source of play. Like again, that's kind of that that prey drive, like, right? Like, if she's holding the ball, it's what we would call dead, right? Versus I tug on it now. That toys, now that that ball's alive. So I bring life to that reward for her. I I'm trying to simplify this uh in a manner to where, you know, like the audience, like you know what I'm saying, but like in a manner that the audience can kind of understand and comprehend that if they don't have that experience with canines, but again, that's all falls under like what you said, drive capping. Uh so like impulse control and and you know making ourselves the most valuable asset out there. I was gonna say I was gonna say something else along along those those those lines. Oh, I was gonna talk about the tools, you know, like yeah, like man, yeah. You can build a dog with those tools very easily. However, the inverse is true. If you don't understand completely understand what you're doing, you can very easily, you know, amplify or or make those situations worse. And part of this comes down to knowing the dog too, right? Like, so I I say you can like we've had a lot of success using the e-collar to redirect a dog, however, it's it's the level that you use it. If I use it too high, or even certain dogs, certain dogs, if I use the e-collar on them when they're trying to react, it's going to actually amplify that reaction. So you have to understand. So some dogs, I might not be able to use the e-collar to redirect them. I might actually have to use pressure on the prong. Some dogs, if I use pressure on the prong, that's gonna amp them up more versus using the e-collar. So you really have to have that deep, intimate understanding of that dog and how it functions, or else you can make the situation a lot worse, right? And and now with that damn it, I hate it when I brain fart. Anyway, so yeah, so you you can amplify or you know, and make make that situation worse by by using the tools inappropriately or using the wrong tool, depending on the dog. So you really have to have that that understanding. You can't just, like you said, just you can't just go throw an e-collar on your dog and and use it without understanding, or even a prong without understanding, and expect the situation to get better.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

Yeah, that's something that I tell I tell the clients, and I I I remind my trainers constantly too, the the team that I work with. You know, they'll get a dog and they get so and I've done it before too. We'll get so wrapped up. We work with multiple dogs a day, and they're all at different stages. So we'll get so amped up, and we get essentially for lack of better terms, we get complacent and we're like, okay, cool. I don't understand why this dog won't sit. And then you start to remember, you're like, damn, we haven't gotten that far yet. Like, yes, the dog technically knows sit, but the dog hasn't proofed itself on sit yet.

SPEAKER_01 57:53

So that goes back to training the dog in front of you.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

Exactly. And that's so that's something I tell them, listen, you can't be mad or hold a dog accountable for something that you haven't efficiently taught yet. So that relates to the to the tools. Now, another thing that because with us being balanced trainers, I think we use and we refer to the tools that we utilize pretty heavily. And I want people to understand that there's a million and a half different ways to train a dog.

unknown 58:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:26

Force community, the force-free community, the balanced community. There, there's a there's a ton of different ways, and there's some dogs that you can't use any of those tools, even if the dog is familiar and acclimated, that dog may not receive any form of pressure in that area effectively. So another useful skill that that we've applied on dogs that we've come across like that from behavior modification is distraction. So, in a dog that we have during an evaluation or during training, I tell the guys all the time, I'll like listen, man, you can write out an entire training plan if you want to waste your time. It gives you a good goal. However, dog training is a living thing, it's a live thing and it's constantly going to change, it's kind of constantly gonna acclimate. So it's never gonna go as planned. You're you're gonna have to be fluid with it. So if you realize that you've gotten a dog where it reacts to essentially a ghost bite on the e-collar, the prong, the slip, the chain, it doesn't matter what tool you use, flat collar leash pressure. You're you know, just trying to use a little bit of compulsion to pull the dog away or tap the or pulse the dog away, however you want to phrase it, if that throws that dog into a reactive state, you need to acclimate that dog for its focus and let that dog realize that the association between a command, so whether that's hey, or the dog's name, or here, or leave it, something like that, means look at me and you get a food reward. So if you have a dog that has a higher food drive than anything, that's a useful thing. Utilize that, utilize the resources that you have identified as being valuable. And there's been dogs that I've worked that obedience-wise, the e-collar's been fantastic, reactivity-wise, the e-collar will immediately trigger them. So we'll we'll acclimate them to food reward if they have that drive. Hey, doom dog looks at you, makes eye contact. Yes, you mark it, you start moving backwards away from that threat, get out of that kill funnel, boom, there you go. The dog gets the reward, and now they're engaging with you. Again, you have created you as the gate as a gatekeeper, gatekeeper. So you've increased your value as the provider of that. That's kind of what you were talking about. You were becoming the gatekeeper. The ball is useless without you, the tug is useless without you. Dogs that have toy drive have prey drive. So, prey, if the prey is already dead, it they don't want to play with it. They want that prey to be alive. And that is why. So, like when we teach a trainer course, we always teach I don't care if your entire goal is to be a pet dog trainer, you're going to learn the basics and the principles of scent detection. The reason is the more you understand about how your dog works and how it taps into the drives and canine body language, the more you understand about those topics, the more efficient and the more successful of a trainer you will be. So there's nothing that will teach you nothing. There's no other skill set that will teach you how to read canine body language more than tracking or detection. And and with that, I want someone to be able to look at a dog, feel a dog. I I can take my dog into a pitch black room and tell you when he alerts. I listen to his breathing, I feel it through the leash. I can I can feel that movement through the leash. With ear pro on, you know, we do we we do training at ranges, we do training under live fire. My dog, just because people are shooting around us, doesn't mean my dog doesn't need to look for an explosive, doesn't mean my dog doesn't need to look for narcotics. So we train in that environment, and in that environment for my hearing safety, for whatever hearing I have left, hashtag thanks army. Um I have ear pro on, so I can't use my sense of sound. I have to be able to watch. I'm looking at rib expansion, I'm looking at nose twitches, I'm looking for the physical signs of impingement. During all of that, I understand the physics behind how my dog works and functions. So when, and you kind of brought it up earlier, you're like, hey, you know, when we when we work our bite dogs, we do this to turn the dog on. Exactly. I think some of the best behavioral modification trainers are really good decoys because we know exactly how to turn a dog on. And if you understand you also know how to turn the dog off. Exactly. If you can understand exactly how to turn that dog on, you know the steps to take to turn that dog off. Yeah, so we take those elements out. Oh, I'm in your space, you're reacting. Cool. I'm doing behavior modification, the prey's gonna die. I'm gonna die. The trigger's gonna die.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

I do that all the time, man. Like a dog comes in for a consultation and it's reactive, and it'll be reacting at me, and I will just sit there and I will give it zero fucking feed. Well, I mean, I guess it's still feedback, but I will give it the exact opposite feedback of what it expects, right? It expects it barks, it acts nasty, it does all this shit that that threat goes away, and I will stand there just outside of its space, so I don't get bit, obviously, but I will stand there and I will not flinch. I I don't care if it's lunging at me, I'm just gonna stand there and and guess what I'm gonna do? I again I back to decoin, I understand that eye contact is pressure. I'm not gonna stare at the dog, I'm watching it out of my peripherals, don't get me wrong, but I'm not making eye contact with it, and I'm ignoring it. And guess what happens? That dog might react for a moment, and then it's like, well, that guy's not acting like everybody else. And then it starts to get confused because it's like, well, normally I act like this and this happens. And I'm even in that consultation, I'm already starting to rewire that dog's way of thinking. I'm like, I I I don't give a shit how nasty you act. I'm still here and I'm not going anywhere. And and you start to put that little doubt in there, right? But like to to your point, you were talking about like how how the dog like responds to to things and like disengaging them. I I we always tell our clients, you want to be the most exciting thing in the room. And what whether that's basic obedience or a dog that's reacting, like if my dog values me as the most valuable thing out there, it's gonna be so easy for it's gonna be so much easier for me to redirect my dog away from whatever would cause that reaction. And you do it in many facets. Again, it comes down to knowing the dog that's in front of you. Some dogs praise, good boy, good girl, you know. Some it's rewards, you know, some it's pets. It's understanding. It's like people, we have love languages, right? You gotta understand your partner's love language. Same with your dog, you gotta understand what value brings to mo what. Reward brings the most value to your dog. Now with that said it had something to do with that, and I just lost it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:13

So like with that said bringing this is the joys of doing a podcast with two guys that have TBIs.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:21

Yeah, and at 11 my time, midnight your time. But motherfucker. So what was I talking about? It's funny because I'm gonna leave this in there and people are gonna be like, these guys. We were on a roll, and then Michael just completely brain farted.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:40

So ha having training the dog in front of you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:45

Oh yeah. Again, like the most valuable thing in the room. So that that was another point that I was gonna bring up, and maybe I'll remember the other point I was gonna I was leading to, but training the dog in front of you, that's thanks for for saying that. Like even Padme, with all the level of of training that she does, like she does tactical shit with me, like explosive detection, she can do apprehension, all that kind of stuff. Sometimes I pull her out, though we've done every single thing thousands of times. And sometimes I pull her out and she might act like she doesn't know shit. And yeah, I could get frustrated and be like, what the hell? I've done this a thousand times with you. I got to train that dog in front of me. I might have to take a step back. And that's the same with dogs that we train. Or you know, if you're listening to this and your dog's reactive, you you might think that you're at a higher level, but again, you got to train that dog that's right there in front of you. So what am I gonna do? Am I gonna? No. I'm gonna take a step back and I'm gonna say, okay, cool. I'm gonna pull out the treats and I'm gonna work you through this. I'm gonna dial it back to where I need to dial it back so that we can have that positive training experience. And and again, it's it's creating those positive interactions and building that dog up, training the dog that's in front of you. We talked about reward system. I feel like there was something else that I was gonna say. But honestly, dude, like we we could go on and on about reactivity. And I feel like this is a topic that we will dive into again later because there's there's just so many layers and so much that we can talk about when it comes to reactivity. Like we could talk all night long and barely scratch the surface on this, and that's a lot of these categories that we talk about. Oh, that was now I remembered.

Balanced Training And Better Toolboxes

SPEAKER_01 1:08:38

Last thing before we shift gears, is yeah, like you said, we're both balanced trainers, and and sometimes balanced trainers get this negative light, you know, like, oh, balanced trainers, because yes, we'll use corrections. But guess what? I given the opportunity, I'm gonna make the training experience as positive as possible for that dog. But I also understand the importance of repercussions, like for behaviors. Everything is an option, just like for us. We have we have a choice. You you know, you you can go out and say driving. You can go out and drive, you can drive the speed limit, and guess what's gonna happen to you for driving the speed limit? Nothing. You get to your destination, or you can go out and you can drive 30 miles over the speed limit. Guess what's gonna happen? Probably gonna get pulled over, probably gonna get a ticket. You have the choice, there are repercussions for those choices, good or bad. And it's uh it's the same for the dog. But the thing about balance trainers versus you know, like positive only or compulsion trainers, generally speaking, a positive only trainer isn't gonna do anything other than positive only, and a compulsion trainer is only gonna do compulsion. Whereas balance trainers, you have a wide spectrum, and and I think that's what sets balance trainers apart is I will sit down with a positive only trainer and I will learn their methodology. I don't agree with compulsion training, but I would sit down and I would hear how they do things. I'm probably not gonna do things the way that they do, but to your point, every dog is different, every dog responds to things different. I have to train the dog that's in front of me, and I have to use whatever communication system, whatever training methodology I have to do to work that dog. No two dogs are the same. None of I again, I can't, like you said, you can't have this rigid, I'm gonna do this, this, that, and the other. I have to train that dog in front of me. And one dog, I can reward the shit out of it, I can lure it into every position, I can get it there. Very minimal corrections. Another dog, I'm gonna have to use more corrections because it doesn't give a shit about food, it doesn't care about this, it doesn't care about anything. I have to be able to improvise and and train whatever dog is in front of me, just like people have different learning styles, so do dogs. And again, that's where versing yourself in as many different training styles as possible. My way isn't the only way, my way isn't always the right way, your way is not the only way or the right way. And I'm never too proud to say that I don't know anything, I don't know everything. Hell, we the way I was taught how to use e-collars was as only as a correction. And then so we sat down with another trainer. Shout out to Chris Altair from my dog trainer, if you know him. His methodology, most people would think it's like out, it's so far out of the box of like how everybody else does things. But when I sat down and I listened to how he did things and I watched how he did things, I was like, this makes so much sense, dude. And so we changed, we didn't entirely change everything to the way he does things, but I changed the way that I use the e-collar and started stop stopped using it as a correction and using it primarily as communication, as as a tool to communicate with my dog. With that said, sometimes I do use have to use the the e-collar as as a correction. But again, I'm not too proud to say that I don't know everything and I don't think that my way is the best way. I do things the best way that I know how, but there's other people that have been out there a lot longer than I have and might have way better insights on how to address subjects than I do.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:46

Yeah, and that's why that's kind of a failing point of um it brings up a couple things. It's kind of a failing point of the one-way or no way trainer, so positive only trainers, they're not able to train the dog in front of them unless it's the right dog. You know, if if they bring if somebody brings them a dog that those methods work on, cool, they can train that dog, but but what if they get approached with a dog that that doesn't work on? Like you said, they're the dog could care less about reward, praise, anything like that. What if that dog's only effective mechanism is the desire to escape pressure? That being said, you take a different dog to a compulsion only trainer. What if that dog shuts down over pressure or avoidance training, and the dog only has a desire for luring and reward systems? Okay, cool. Guess what? You can't train that dog, and that's why I chose a balanced path. Yes, I understand compulsion, yes, I understand e-collars and training tools, yes, I understand line, yes, I understand praise. I you can't replace an inch with a hammer, you have to have a toolbox, and we've said that before. And you know, you have to take into consideration that these dogs, the dogs that you see on TikTok, that they're throwing out of Black Hawk helicopters and chasing people down on beaches, and they're climbing, you know, rope bridges and going after bad guys and all this stuff, and everyone's like, Man, that is cool. I wish my dog was that smart. Guess what? All the way from the yappy chihuahua to that high drive, high-speed Dutchy or Belgian, they all share one thing in common. All of them have the average mentality of anywhere from a three to a seven-year-old child. So when you're working with these dogs, you have to understand that. And it's essentially the exact same thing as working with kids. You have to be able to change things and the way you communicate into a form where the child will listen and understand. I have kids, you know, and I will tell you this as a parent of multiple children. Raising kids is not always ice cream cones. You you can't do it. You're gonna end up with you're gonna end up raising an inmate. I I worked in corrections for a long time, over a decade. And with that, those are the people that grew up, not all of them. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna group them together, but a vast majority of people who stay institutionalized in the correctional facility or in the correctional system, they're people that have been raised without the proper discipline, without proper socialization. I looked at some close, yeah, and without the consequences. And you know, you you have to be able to have that balance. And when I worked with I worked with an organization in a company in Arizona when I delivered some dogs, and that's another thing that I I brought up in in the the surprise entity that I'm working on that you joked on me for bringing up earlier. He said something, and I take stuff from everything. I'm always a sponge. I soak up everything that I can in every facet, and I apply it as as much as I can. And he said something that really stuck with me and has been applicable in all of my training, every single bit of it. We were doing bike work. Part of the deal for me going down there was a day of decoy work, and this guy is an amazing decoy. He's probably one of the best decoys I've ever met in my life, as far as like real protection decoys, not a sport guy, not not any of that goofy stuff. He does actual life protection work. So the we put the dog, dog was on a table, round table, approached the dog in my suit, took a bicep bite, left bicep. It was a frontal. And he said, Okay, reach down, grab the dog, get some some rib skin, put pressure on the dog. And I said, All right, perfect. So I did, and he said, What we're doing right here, and this is the part that stuck with me, and I've I've put it to everything. He said, Everything that we do as a decoy, we're asking the dog a question. What do you do now? When we give that question, we're waiting on a response. Depending on how the dog answers, depends on what we offer the dog in return. So, an example of that situation, I put pressure on the dog, I made the dog uncomfortable. I put the dog into an uncomfortable situation, I'm asking, what do you do now? The right answer is redrive with a full mouth grip. If you don't, if your answer is anything else, if it's the death shake, if it's thrashing, if he comes off and redirects, if he loses the bite, either he loses the bite and we disengage, he gets to be get put up frustrated and build that agitation for the next round, or the the prey, me, does not come alive. We hold still. If the dog answers the question appropriately with the answer that we're looking for, he's rewarded. The prey comes alive, the pressure comes off of him. I let go of that rib skin. Boom. Ah, I come alive. He's excited. He's like, Yes, this is fun. This is engaging. I want this. That's that was the right answer. Now you're building that muscle memory. It's the same thing when we're working with reactive dogs, gonna come into your space. What do you do now? If you give me the wrong answer, nothing changes. You don't gain anything, you're not gonna lose anything, but you're also not gonna gain anything. If you give me the right answer, then you're gonna gain stuff. Okay, I'm in your space, you stayed calm, I made a little bit of progress. Cool. Yes, I'm gonna market, I'm gonna reward, and then I'll leave and I'll come back and I'll push you a little bit further next time, and then a little bit further next time. And I'm gonna continue to work those rings of that threshold.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:50

Yeah, it's it's funny because I yeah, I every everything is a question. And here's the thing that like most people don't realize is those questions and those responses are very swift, and you have like especially working with like protection dogs or you know, reactive dogs, you have to be on your A game at all time.

Reading Body Language To Redirect Early

SPEAKER_01 1:19:16

I working in protection, I have to get the right feedback instantaneously. I have to read that dog's body language, and that that applies for you know behavioral dogs too. Like, and this was something that was I uh it's actually just plays right into something that I was gonna say, anyways, is being able to read that dog's body language, those cues, and and again, it takes a lot of practice. But and and you kind of mentioned this, like training in those different environments with like scent detection and stuff, and hinted at it with the decoy stuff as well, is I have to be able to read that dog very quickly and read those body languages to understand what's going on. Oh, that dog went rigid, oh, it's got the well eyes, it's snarling, you know, its hair just stood up, and and and some and and sometimes that's as far as it goes, but sometimes it's as as instantaneous as those signs and then reaction, right? And and that kind of plays a role in preventing the reaction as well. I every dog reacts differently too. Again, training the dog in front of you. One dog's buildup to a reaction may be very different than another dog's buildup to a reaction. So those are those things, especially in an evaluation. Like I will sit there and I won't say anything at first. I might ask them some questions, and I will sit there and I just observe the dog, kind of listening to what they're saying, but I'm more listening to what the dog is telling me, and I'm watching what the dog does, I'm seeing how it builds up to that reaction because that process is going to be very important for me in transforming that behavior. For example, if that dog, its buildup is it starts breathing faster, it starts panting, or it stops panting, it gets rigid, whatever those that that buildup process looks like. Oh, it got rigid, now it got forward, or now it's it's breathing heavier, that's followed by whining, followed by barking, followed by I I learn what that progress is, and guess what? My my steps towards towards reducing that reactivity is redirecting. And that kind of goes back to you know building that structure, and and I have to have that that basis in obedience as well. And and and again to to the kids' aspect, if you always just tell your kids no, with no other further direction, you know, they're jumping on the couch and I just tell them stop, or they're you know, having a pillow fight, jumping up and down on the bed, and I just tell them stop. There's constantly, and I'm just like, stop doing that, stop doing that, stop doing that. The kids like, well, what the hell do you want me to do? Versus being able to redirect and you know, kids jumping on the couch. I can say, Hey, go do your homework, go play outside, go watch, go watch TV. Guess what? Now I just gave that kid my expectations for what they should be doing. It's the same with the dog. So yeah, uh starting out, I'll tell the dog no, don't do that. But it's always followed by what I want them to do. And and the biggest reason that I'll tell them no is because there is value in being able to tell your dog no, you know, if it's a dangerous situation, I might not have time to actually say what I want you to do, but I need you to understand that no means stop doing whatever the fuck you're doing right now. But it's uh it's usually followed by redirection, right? So I will shift more towards redirecting. So that dog's starting to build towards that reaction. Hey, climb, hey, heal, hey, and then I'm gonna redirect it to what I want it to do. But again, that comes from building that relationship, building that communication, building those expectations. All those pieces build up and it all builds together towards reducing that reactivity along with a lot of those other aspects that we talked about. So it's a very complex system and it's very situational on how we reduce reactivity. But again, I I think we could talk on this for hours. So I think this is a topic that we we readdress and dive into more in the in the future, but let's shift over to the second portion of our show.

Police K9 Abuse Video Breakdown

SPEAKER_01 1:24:02

And let me come here and pull up our news story for the day. And this one actually just happened today. This happened in Frankfurt, Indiana. Uh, I can want to say Kentucky, but Frankfurt, Indiana. And I'll I'll put a link in in the description for you guys. But a Frankfurt police canine handler is under investigation after being accused of abusing his canine partner. Video allegedly captured the abuse, but police say the dog is not injured. This was reported on the news earlier, and you know, you and I both watched a video before this. And watch watching that video and watching the the situation. This is recorded by a bystander, and this bystander said that this had actually been going on prior to her deciding to record. And in the video, you can see the canine handler trying to work, and I'm gonna use air quotes there, work his dog, and then he picks the dog up and slams like by its collar is what it appears, and picks it up and slams it to the ground. And you know, you you've watched the same video. I I I kind of want to want to hear your feedback on this situation.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:40

So watching that video earlier, and and when we pick these these topics, we usually pick it before the show, and we wanted to make sure that everything that we discuss has some form of relevancy. I made a comment earlier that I think this one fits perfectly because it's almost the polar opposite of the very first episode we did, where the the entire thing was based around the dedication and commitment between an officer and their canine partner. So, in this video, when we're watching it, you can granted the the videos, and this has been proven time and time again with what we get to see, we get to see a portion of it. However, what it would appear in the video, the dog does not seem to be aggressing the the handler, which even then doesn't account for the actions. You can visibly see from what appears to be the next yard over, so across a yard, across another yard, across the driveway, and over the hood of a vehicle, you can see the police handler pick up the canine in the air and slam the dog onto the ground. Listen, I don't ever see a reason for that. Now, if a dog is mauling me, attacking me, putting me into a life or death situation, yes, I'm gonna do whatever I need to to maintain the integrity of my safety and to make sure that I get to go home at the end of the day. I would rather be scrutinized for body slamming a dog versus never getting to go home and see my kids again. However, that does not appear to be the situation here. In the video, you can see the handler standing over in a dominating stance. You can see him kind of towering over the dog and looking down and speaking, and then you visibly see him bend down, pick the dog up, slam the dog down. That's unacceptable, period. If You know, in the first episode, we kind of touched how the whether the dog is legally protected and classified as a peace officer or not. That dog is an accepted member of that community and is an officer. Period. I don't care what the law says, as far as a handler goes, that is an officer. That is my partner. So that is the equivalent of me and you being on the job. We get into a debate, and I'm like, hey, I need you to check that trash can. You're like, I'm not fucking checking that trash can. So my answer to that is to throw a right hook right to your mouth. That's not acceptable. If that was to happen between two officers in uniform on the street, both of them would be terminated. Both of them would face charges. Both of them would face some official misconduct. There has to be a consequence to this. There has to be a repercussion. One, it puts a bad taste in the community's mouth for handlers. As displayed in the testimonies on that video, when we watched that video, the one of the civilians stated they said, Hey, we're a small community and they'll essentially give the canine out to anybody. They just hand them out out here. That's that's not okay. That's a specialized unit, it's a specialized tool. I understand that they're beneficial, they're useful, but there has got to be some betting. You know, going through the schools that I did, I got to experience and work right alongside several, several agencies with police handlers. Some of them, you just it wasn't them. That wasn't their capacity, you know, and you can pick that up really quickly. Some of them, like me, this has engulfed my entire existence. It's engulfed my entire life. Even when I ate it's funny because earlier I I compared training dogs to raising kids. I catch myself all the time when I'm interacting with my children now. I'm like, okay, I'm in this situation, I'm being faced with this issue. How do I present this? How do I how do I address this? And I'm like, okay, if this was a dog, this is what I would do. That's how engulfed the my life and existence has become around dogs. And I just I really cannot articulate a single excusable reason of why this behavior would have become necessary.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:20

Yeah, dude, like my initial instinct is like I I can't even think of a reasonable, excusable reason for that response. I mean, I I know in the in the video like they talked about how he'd only been a canine handler for like two years or something like that. I I don't really think that that plays a factor. You you can be a good canine handler after a few months, you know. I I think that comes down to training. I think that comes down to poor vetting. Like this person clearly was not cut out for that. Maybe it comes down to training, but you know, I I try to think about it from that law enforcement perspective as somebody that's had interactions with law enforcement and does a lot of training with law enforcement, including canine units. I get it, dude. Sometimes shit's frustrating, right? Especially as a police officer. Like, we don't know what that day looked like. That police officer could have just been having a rough day. But to your point, and what you said in that first episode, sometimes that canine is the only backup you have. That's your partner, that's your supposed to be your ride or die. You should have a really good relationship with your canine to the to the point that you again that's this kind of debatable, but you you you taking a bullet for your canine. Granted, I I would like to say that I wouldn't do that because the borderline between like that canine is a is a tool versus that that canine's an officer, you know, you have that that the dilemma, like that canine's there to do a job, but again, that connection to your canine, you're like, I'd take a bullet for it. But what I see, I see poor handling, poor relationship between that canine and handler. I'm surprised that that canine hasn't bit the crap out of that handler for the way that he was handling it. What whatever his reasoning is, it's a poor reasoning. I don't even need to know what it is. There's ways to approach that in a much more professional and humane way. Like, yeah, so what if the dog's not doing what you ask? Like, we have bad days, dogs have bad days, take that into account. Also, maybe it's your handling ability, right? Like, this kind of ties back to you know, like handler dependency. A lot of times what people classify as handler dependency is confusion, is actually the dog doesn't understand what's expected of it. And that falls back to the consistency or, you know, just again, lack of experience with that canine. I don't know how long that canine's been on the force. Maybe that's been his partner for two years. It didn't give that information. Maybe this is a new canine. And regardless, you I need to work with that canine, like back to the military or even law enforcement. I don't necessarily like everybody that I had to work with, but you learn how to work together and have a good working relationship. And it's the same with your canine, like, you need to have a good working relationship. If you're not capable of having a good working relationship with your dog, then you need more training. You need maybe you shouldn't be a canine handler at all, you know. Honestly, like I hope that they treat this as like a felony. I hope this dude never carries a gun and a badge again. Like, I'm not gonna say anything bad on that department. I will say that probably not the right guy for the job, but screw that officer, man. Like that that officer is a piece of shit for the way that he handled that dog. There, there is no excusable reason for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:42

Well, and a couple points on that. So if I remember the article correctly, that was a that was a PD, like that was a police department handler, right? And they said that the investigation was being handled by the sheriff's department. Yes. So to credit and and having some some law enforcement knowledge and background, to credit that agency, you you know, you made mention exclusively, I don't want to say anything bad about the the agency, to give credit to that agency, it would appear from the information that we have available to us that they have handed that investigation off to a separate entity, which is exactly what needs to happen.

Accountability Training And Legal Protection

SPEAKER_00 1:35:22

It gives an equal unbiased opinion. You know, when we had an issue or an incident that was critical inside of the jail, we handed it off to one of the local agencies or KSP to be able to come in and handle that investigation. That was completely uninvolved, completely unbiased. They have no interest in it to have a biased opinion on it. So it was a fair judgment and a fair investigation on that part. And I respect that highly.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:50

Almost a year, a year and a half four months, not even a year and a half. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:55

Yeah. So looking at that, you know, I think that that that ties into so much of what we've we've discussed before. Like you said, a training failure. I hadn't I had an experience with an officer that knows we interacted while I was still in corrections. He was a street entity, and he came up to me. He knows that I have a working background in dogs, and he's he kind of gave me a story. I'm not gonna name the agency or the officer, but he gave me a story and he was like, Man, you're not gonna believe what happened. The the my dog challenged me, he tested me the other night, and I had to put him in his place, you know, I had to snatch him up and put him on the ground and and and kind of choke him out, let him know who's who's boss. And I can't fault that individual for that because that's what he was taught, and you can only do what you were taught. That's the you know, practice within your scope. So the school that he came from. That is what they taught. They they taught that 20, 30 years ago, this is how we did it, this is how it's still done, and that's how they handled things back then.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:10

That kind of ties back into you know what we've talked about previously, is like canine training is constantly evolving. We're we're constantly getting better understandings of canine, and you know, the old school mentality of how to handle your your dog or your canine is evolved very drastically even over the last decade, let alone 20, 30 years ago. That old school mentality is honestly there's no no place for that in canine handling, let alone in law enforcement. Putting your dog in its place, I dude, that that makes me like cringe just hearing that terminology. Like, again, it it it all comes down to the relationship you have with your dog, and again, mutual understanding, mutual trust and respect. That's that's what that relationship should be built on. But I I think it's a lot of that's a lot of mindset, mindset shifting that's occurring and needs to continue to occur. But man, honestly, I have no empathy or compassion for this officer. I I don't care what went on. There is there is no excusable reasoning for the way he treated that officer. I think he should be charged the same way as somebody, you know, a civilian that did something to a police can. Honestly, from what I read, they recognize them as police officers, but they don't give them the same protections under the law. Like some states, you know, if you if you assault a police canine, you're getting charged the same as if you assaulted a human officer, which I I like. I I think every state should be that way. Indiana does not appear to be one of those states. There are charges. I know we were over that. I think that's that's bogus. I think they're just as valuable of a component to the to the team as anyone else on the department, and they they should be treated as such, they should have the same protection as any other police officer on the force. I think that he should get the most extreme punishment for his behavior, especially if there was more that happened before that. But you're dude, you're caught on video picking your dog up, he's probably close to six foot, and he picked that dog up and slammed it at least five, maybe six foot off the ground.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:03

And oh, easy. And even in the worst scenario that the dog, so say the video started after the dog had attacked or had aggressed the officer, like you said, that's still not a that's not a good excuse because at that moment, so when it comes to reasonable use of force in a human capacity, we have to stop whether you're a civilian or a law enforcement officer, so whether you're acting in the performance of a duty or in a case of self-defense, you have to stop your use of force when the threat stops. So if you're fighting a guy and they throw their hands up, they're like, hey, I'm done, and they're they're clearly signifying I'm no longer a threat, legally, you have to stop. So if the dog had quit engaging, there is no excuse for the the handler to continue his behavior, which means that that video, even with that circumstance taken into account, which we don't know if that's a circumstance or not, but even if that circumstance is taken into account at the moment that the officer reacted, that was visually and clearly proven right there, that is no longer a relevant factor, that's no longer a relevant source. The threat had stopped, even if it was a fact, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:22

To to that point, though, even if the had came at him, that tells me right there that there is not a good canine handler relationship, and again, that falls back on who that handler because it's your job to have a good working relationship with your canine. I don't care. I mean, yeah, how you were trained plays a role, but I I really don't care. You should be seeking to have that good working relationship with your canine. If your school, and again, I don't know anything about Indiana's canine schools, so this is no way a diss on them. I'm no way blaming them because I I don't know. I don't care if theirs is the worst freaking school in the country. You know, yeah, you have morality. You should know, hey, this this doesn't seem right. You know, there's got to be a better way to do this, and you should seek a way to have a better relationship with your canine. Again, back to always improving. Like, just because I learned something from a school doesn't mean that I know everything. That doesn't mean that that's the only way or or necessarily the right way, right? Like you that that I I put that blame entirely. I don't I don't give a shit if that canine tried to bite that officer. That means you did something, you overstepped a boundary, you didn't respect that dog's boundaries, or there's not uh communication, there's not trust, not respect, not any of those aspects to your relationship with that dog. Yeah, I agree. Which again, that all kind of just kind of ties back into the the topic today. Even if there was handler aggression or a bad working relationship, we we really broke down ways to build a better relationship with your dog today. I mean, I know the emphasis was on reactivity, but all those aspects play a role. But man, I I I think we covered that that new story pretty well.

Key Takeaways And Next Week

SPEAKER_01 1:44:31

Those of you you listening, we we want to thank you for tuning in to another episode of the devil. I'll cut that part. We want to thank you guys for tuning in to another episode of the Talk Shit Get Bit podcast. We'll see you guys again next week.