From Bloodlines To Bite Work: How Genetics Shapes Training, Temperament, And Health

Think a strong pedigree guarantees a stellar working dog? We put that myth on the table and carve it open. We talk candidly about what breeding actually predicts—drives like hunt, prey, play—and what training sculpts over time, from environmental stability to social confidence. You’ll hear the exact field tests we use to separate true nerve from fragile reactivity: slick floors, tight spaces, dark rooms, metal bowls on tile, and how a dog’s curiosity or recovery tells the real story.

We compare two high-performing protection dogs with very different profiles—one built for tactical clarity and public composure, another tuned for suspicion at home and in vehicles—and show why the on-off switch matters more than a flashy bark. We dig into research on heritability, epigenetics, and line breeding, explaining how stress on a dam can tilt a litter toward anxiety, why high inbreeding coefficients invite trouble, and how even “rock star” parents can produce a mixed bag. Breeds don’t get a pass: German Shepherds often present learned reactivity rooted in fear, while labs—ideal for scent work and PR—still bite and resource guard when training lags. We also tackle decoy mechanics and the fine line between building prey drive and accidentally reinforcing defense, plus why you should never teach an underconfident dog to bite.

Then we shift to the street: police K9s and ballistic vests. From tight municipal budgets to grant bottlenecks, we break down the real costs of a working dog and the simple math that makes a thousand‑dollar vest a smart investment. We share practical ways departments and communities can partner with charities and run fundraisers to outfit dogs for the threats they’ll face—blunt force, blades, and bullets—so a trained partner comes home.

If this helped sharpen how you judge bloodlines, evaluate puppies, or think about K9 gear, tap follow, share it with a friend who loves working dogs, and leave a quick review so more handlers and dog owners can find the show.

Transcript

Setting The Agenda: Genetics In Dogs

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Talk Jet Get Bit Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Parker.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

And I'm your co-host, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

And on today's episode, we're going to talk about genetics. So we're going to talk about how genetics play a role when it comes to working dogs. We're going to talk about and even pet dogs. Genetics can play a role in several aspects, the impacts on their health, certain health concerns that can come about due to genetics behaviors, especially behaviors associated with certain breeds. And then also the impacts that it can have on training. But with that said, we'll get get rolling here. So I guess where where do we want to start with this? I know it's kind of a loaded topic. But I guess I'll I'll lead you with this question.

What Breeding Really Predicts

SPEAKER_00 0:50

When it comes to selecting a working dog like a protection dog or scent detection or even service dogs, how much impact does genetics actually play in whether that dog is going to be good at that particular task?

SPEAKER_01 1:07

So when I go to select a dog, when I look at dogs for potential grain dogs as candidates for especially scent detection, I'm going to look at several factors. You know, 15, 20 years ago, the big thing was what's the mom and dad do? That's that's considered heredability. And we still kind of look at that when it comes to drives. Those are things that can be built through training, but they have to have a foundation. If they don't have that initial foundation, that just inherit drive that they inherited, uh, for lack of better terms, it's gonna be extremely hard or impossible to do that. Things that can be built, things that are not considered hereditary, are social fear, environmental things. Those are all built-through training. Now, when I go to look at dogs, unless it's a very young puppy that I'm gonna get during the critical stages of development, those are those are gonna be things that I do test. I'm gonna take that dog on slick floors, I'm gonna take the dog on gravel, grass, dirt, concrete, stairs, dark spaces, tight spaces, running water, loud noises. Those are all things that I'm gonna look for. I'm not too much concerned about the parents. I've seen two Dutch non-working parents produce fantastic dogs, and I've seen the opposite. I've seen two rock star parents that out of a litter of eight, you know, six of them have really shined, and then the other ones are just kind of mediocre if they even work at all.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Yeah. Yeah, and you know, I'll I'll use personal example here. So Laura, she's she's got uh protect her protection dog, great genetics, right? On paper, extremely reactive, right? He's got weird quirks, right? Um out of the parents that he came from, you you wouldn't expect that kind of stuff. But again, like you said, there's there's some factors that don't actually necessarily predict everything with genetics. And it

Drive, Nerves, And Environmental Tests

SPEAKER_00 3:20

it it can it paints a picture for us, I would say, but it doesn't paint all the details. Uh and and to your point too, like I we've taken dogs that backyard bred, as I as we like to call them, you know, who knows what their genetics look like, and they turn into solid service dogs, right? So I guess it it helps I would say the best way to describe it is it helps paint a picture, uh, but it doesn't define everything. Now, I would say generally a good genetics can help, uh, but it would come down to more aspects of personality and and confidence in that dog. And I'm very much like you, I I'm gonna test all not all the same aspects that you do. I look at other things, you know, like I'll throw a metal bowl on the floor and see how the dog reacts if it runs away scared. I that's that's not a dog that I want, especially for like protection or even service dog, because I know I'm gonna have an uphill battle trying to help that dog overcome that fear and confidence, especially when they're a young puppy, versus a dog that's curious or just kind of hardly reacts at all. That's that's that's a better sign. Now, I would say drive is is huge, and that could be attributed to genetics, finding a dog with the right kind of drive. Even then, sometimes the drive is ridiculous, right? And you get a dog like like my protection bomb dog, you know, she's great at everything, but she's got drive out the wall zoo, and you can kind of you can't really lower that drive a whole lot, but you can channel it. Uh, but even then she's still a nutcase, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Yeah, and that's that kind of goes back. So in kind of in preparation for this episode, I was looking up some studies and doing some research. I found one earlier from the Swedish Working Dog Association where they found that environmental sensitivity and social fear actually have a lower rate of heredibility, meaning that they're more commonly influenced by training, which is what what we've said. But your drives, hunt drive, playfulness, fetch, um, so the hunt drive, play drive, protection drive, defensive drive, prey drive, all those things have a significantly higher rate of heredability. So when we look at that and we start comparing the uh quantitative genetics and the EVBs, the estimated breeding values for those dogs, that's all things that we're gonna take into consider. So again, we are gonna look at the parents, but for example, I I kind of have the same situation. So my male dog, Cooley, we've we've talked about him before I've traced his bloodlines back to uh CMPV lines from the the the get-go. I mean, the original giant of the the game. And he's a phenomenal dog, he's well-rounded. I have videos, I have pictures, I have life experience of him taking down a 250-pound grown man and uh, you know, half mile across the field. I've got evidence and certifications for all those things. At the same

When Great Pedigrees Disappoint

SPEAKER_01 6:45

time, I also have videos that I've used for my social media on our TikTok and stuff of my five-year-old daughter walking him on a loose leash in a heel. I've got pictures of him laying down and essentially being just abused and manhandled by a red heeler mixed puppy named Rooster and just calm as can be. So he's a he's a really well-rounded dog, which at the end of the day is what we that's what my company is going to look for specifically in a dog. I need a dog that has those drives, that has the ability to go out there, knock it out, clear 10,000 square foot an hour, stand to be around 3,000 plus people in a lobby, and at the same time can be sociable enough. And we look for the same when we produce and sell police dogs as well. If you don't have a social dog that will still do its job, that on-off switch, then you really have more of a liability than a tool. I've seen some really, really rowdy dogs, and they have their place, but that place is not everywhere. You know, that that's not the dog you're gonna take to do a school demonstration and then at nine o'clock in the morning and then at nine o'clock at night send after a cartel member that's sprinting down the street running from you.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Right. Yeah, and that that social piece is is huge. And so I I'll use my protection dog versus like Laura's protection dog, for example, both phenomenal at their jobs, but very different um categories of of protection dog, if you will. Hers is very suspicious, you know. Every everybody's suspicious, which is great for what he's he's trained for, right? You know, for defending the house, vehicle, things as such, you know, walking down a dark alley at night. Yeah. Whereas Padme, she's trained more for tactical stuff, and she's just, like you said, very social. Like I could let her loose in a classroom of 35-year-olds, and they could do whatever they wanted to to her. And I have zero concern in the world that she would bite anybody. Very good on and off switch, very good uh with people. But when it when it's time to work, it's time to work. You give her that, you give her that that command, and she's gonna light up. And I really trust her judgment because she is, she has suspicion, but her suspicion's not too high, right? And that's especially this kind of ties into, you know, how how breed it ties into breed's genetics. We all know that German Shepherds have a lot of natural suspicion and are very suspicious of people. Well, she's a Mal Shepherd mix, she doesn't have that German Shepherd suspicion. But when she is suspicious of people every time that she has growled or barked at somebody without me telling her to, I was like, yeah, that person, there's something off about that person. So she's got a very good judge of character, to the point that if she growls or barks at somebody, she's proven to me that there's probably something off with that situation. And again, that I I would credit that to her genetics and and you know breeding more so than you know, just acquired skills. Like that's that's stuff I can't really teach. You can you can sharpen

Channeling High Drive Without Chaos

SPEAKER_00 10:15

it, but I can't teach it if it's not already kind of there.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah, if you don't have the groundwork. If you don't have the foundation from the start, it's very hard for you to build a frame. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

It's like a dog that's you know, like I was saying, you know, a dog that as a puppy is just naturally scared of everything. Can I build its confidence? Yeah, we do that all the time, right? We we build their their confidence and we help them overcome their fear, but we can get them kind of past that, but never gonna build that dog into a protection dog, or it's never gonna have the ability to go search for odors and such forth, or uh, or serve as a service dog, right? Like it's not gonna be cut out for working dog. I I can build it up to where it can function normally, but the reality of building a dog like that to a working dog standard is pretty far-fetched.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Yeah. And that, you know, earlier when we were talking about this, we kind of touched base on the clients that you've had a million of, I've had a million of, that call us and they're like, hey man, I want you to train my dog to be a protection dog. I'm like, well, we need to do an evaluation, we need to do a consult, we need to check this, we need to check that. You know, we we need to know what the dog's nerves are, what the dog's titration is, uh, the dog's natural behaviors, things like that before, and that's what we're doing. We're checking for that foundation. And they say, Well, we can skip that. I know the dog can do it because you know it's a German shepherd, or oh, well, it's a Belgian Malinmoir. And one of my trainers, conveniently enough, she got very lucky. She brought she brought a dog to me one day and she said, Hey, look at this new Belgian Malinmoir I got. And I looked and I kind of giggled and I was like, That's not a Belgian malware. And it's got some Belgian in it. It's mixed with a few other breeds when we ran the uh the MBR test. Now, I say she got lucky because it turns out that dog is absolute rock stone at scent work and we're actively transitioning over into protection work as well. She did, she got very lucky, but when I was looking those studies up earlier, another one that kind of just fell right into place with that was the Science Journal 2022 study that stated that about 9% of behavioral variations in dogs are actually genetic.

Research: What’s Heritable, What’s Not

SPEAKER_01 12:52

80 to 90 percent is tied towards of the the physical traits is what's tied toward tied towards the breed standards and the genetics. That's another thing that it got me thinking. When I read these studies, I I read it, I note, but I also take my interpretation on it, and from my experience, my viewpoints, my education and learning, I say, okay, well, how can we take that further? When I look at a mouth, the very first thing in my head, which both of my personal dogs are not lost, the very first thing that pops into my head is the face. Let me look at the face. How much black is on the face? Does it run from the tip of the nose to the tip of the ears? That is how, again, for lack of better terms, I'm gonna kind of profile that dog and hope that it has good genetics because in breed standards, the more black on the face of that dog, the higher the genetic profile towards the malamol. In certain cases, not every case, but more often than not. So that's neither here nor there. That's just kind of relating towards the differences of what is genetic, what is not genetic as far as inherited. But just because you have a specific breed of dog does not mean that that dog is going to be suited for a task. We turn away hundreds of German shepherds, Belgian malmaws, cane corsos, press canarios, rottweilers that are really great dogs and just amazing pets. They're just not cut out for work. And when I say they're not cut out for work, I mean to do it reliably. There's a difference between forcing a dog to do something and then knowing and betting your life on the fact that that dog will do it when the time is right. That's a big problem with the Doberman's now. You know, they've been line bred so much, they've been watered down, and that breed so much that they have bred most of that working drive out of the dog and aimed towards aesthetics because it is, it's a it's a beautiful looking animal. So we have a Doberman on our team that's certified on narcotics. We just got really lucky with it. That that's really all it comes down to. So when you're out here and and you're buying, and I've got a client that has gone through two Doberman's now looking for a protection dog, and I tried to explain to him, you know, just because you're buying a Doberman doesn't mean you're gonna bring home a $3,500 protection puppy that you're gonna spend another $10,000 in training. We need to go with you, we need to look at the drives. I need to put put a floor pole down in front of that, you know, eight to twelve week puppy and see how that dog interacts because at that young, that's gonna be my very first sign of uh engagement with prey. Um, if I move it out of sight and hide behind the chairs, that is that puppy gonna go pursue that, is it gonna hunt for that? Same thing that you do. I I'll get a metal bowl or a big plastic jug, and I'll have a second person engage with the puppy and play. That's it, just play with the puppy. I'm gonna bang this on the floor over here. If the dog runs and cowers, I don't want anything to do with that dog.

Social Stability And The On‑Off Switch

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yep. If the dog stops, looks, investigates, and then returns back to the activity that it was engaged in, we might have something to work with here.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Yeah, yeah, and yeah, that's unfortunately with a lot of these working line dogs, that's what you see a lot is that people think just because they have a German Shepherd or they have a Malinwald, or they have a Doberman or a Pitbull, Kane course, whatever it might be. You you see these videos of these badass dogs, and unfortunately, they're not all bred equally. Uh, and a lot of it has to do with that watering down of the genetics, but a lot of it, you know, is I would say there's a there's an amount of if you don't know what you're doing, there's a amount of luck in getting in the room, getting a good one. Uh, if you know what you're looking for, it's still a little bit of of luck because you know, sometimes things happen and that dog, you know, changes as it grows, right? We've seen that where you know a dog when it's a young puppy has a lot of potential and then it hits a certain point, usually around that fear phase, and it completely goes sideways. But but to that point, just be just yeah, just because you have a German shepherd, I don't know how many times I I would say in the last 12 months we've trained over 30 German Shepherds, and most of those owners are like, oh, my German Shepherd's protective, it's protective over me. And and then upon quick evaluation, I'm like, yeah. Honestly, when they say that, I'm like, yeah, your dog's probably not protective because I've worked with so many at this point that I I just know I'm like, yeah, your dog's either fearful or underconfident. And that reaction is a learned behavior. And and sure enough, that's usually that's 98% of the time that's the case, is it's it's a learned behavior. The dog is scared or unsure, or or sometimes they just act that way because one, they've never been told not to act that way, and then it works very similar to training working dogs, right? Like if I'm training a protection dog, when it barks at me, I'm gonna flinch, right? To to build that bark and to build that drive, I'm gonna give it feedback. Well, people all the time give your dog feedback, and so if it barks at somebody and they go away and it's barking because it's afraid, then it's reinforcing that behavior. So then you get a dog that seems real nasty, but the moment you take the leash from the owner, it's like, oh shit. I'm not as big and bad as I thought I was, right? There's I call it that false confidence. It's got false confidence when it's with its owner. As soon as you take it away from that, it's like, oh shit. So your dog's not actually protective, it's just reactive.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Yeah. And that is, I mean, you're absolutely right. That's that's something that we're gonna touch uh in another episode is like the mechanics behind decoying, how we do the protection stuff, which we're not we're not we're not gonna dive super, super deep into that. That's I think that's one of the topics that you want to provide good information on, but you also want to make sure there's a level of operational security when it comes to that information.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

You also gotta know it kind of with that, like I can tell you how I do the things I do all the time, you know, and I could tell my clients exactly what I'm gonna do with their dog. Just just because I could tell you everything about how to do it doesn't mean that you can go and replicate that. There's a there's a lot of uh mechanics, and you either got it or you don't, you know, especially with like decoy work. If if you do the wrong things, if if I try to build that dog the wrong way, I'm gonna build it in defense instead of you know, pray. For example, my my dog, she's it's a game. When we're doing bite work, it's a game to her. She's not in defense. It it's a game. And she's like, Yeah, I'm just doing my job here. And then as soon as I say the game's done, it's done, right? But knowing how to build

Suspicion, Judgment, And Breed Tendencies

SPEAKER_00 20:35

that and how to create that, like you said, like I could tell you how to do this stuff, but if you don't do it right, you're gonna build that dog the wrong way, and you're gonna actually end up messing up the dog instead of building the dog.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

You create a liability instead of a tool.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

And so that's kind of one of those things too that kind of ties into this with the genetics and and the reactivity, right? Like we kind of hit on it, but you know, a dog that's underconfident, like you were saying, they would people are like, Oh, I got a German Shepherd or a Malinwall, I want to make it a protection dog. If that dog's underconfident and fearful, the worst thing I could do ethically as a trainer and just as a bean is teach that dog how to bite because it's it's already scared and underconfident, it's already unsure about people. And then if I build its confidence around biting, guess what it's gonna do? It's gonna bite people out of fear, not because it's doing its job, but because it's fearful and it knows that if it bites people, it's gonna cause harm and that person goes away. And that's that's how you end up with a lawsuit on your hand. It's how you end up having to have your dog put down. You know, and we've had clients like that, like their dogs trying to bite people. I'm like, this is what you need to do because the more your dog bites people, the more it's gonna do it, right? The same with like the barking and and lunging at people. It does that because it learns. That makes that thing that it's afraid of go away. So the worst thing I could do is teach that dog to bite because then now it's going to bite, and now you got a bigger problem on your hand.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Right. And when we work those mechanics as a decoy, what we're doing is we're taking an already confident and already stable foundation that isn't barking to say, hey, go away. I'm afraid. Instead, we're we're allowing and teaching that dog to do to offer that response when we ask the question. We put pressure on the dog we're asking a question. What are you going to do now? We get the bark, we get the lunge, we get the snap, we get the bite, then we retreat. Yes, now we've turned it into a game. And we're utilizing the confidence of the dog walking tall. That's why when we start, we start very small sessions, very quick sessions, and we let the dog kind of you know prance off the field, or we'll drag the dog off the field and kind of build that aggravation and just really get that drive going.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

You give it those wins. Like you want you want to build that dog to be 10 foot, to think that it's 10 foot tall and bulletproof. And to to that point, like if I I pulled out Padme, if I I built her to the point that when we do bite work, sometimes I'm almost full on fighting my dog, right? And and the reason for and you know, like some people might look at that and be like, oh my god, he's abusing that dog. No, dude, she's biting the shit out of me. I promise you, she's causing more harm to me right now than even with the sleeve on. But also, I've built her up, right? I started with you know, acting like I'm going to small smacks, and you build up. And really, I'm just actually ensuring that my dog is good to go in a real life situation. Because guess what's going to happen in a real life situation? If she bites somebody, they're going to try to get her off. They're going to try to slam her into something, they're going to punch her. They're, they, they might even shoot her, you know, or stab her. So I've got to make her

False Confidence Vs True Protection

SPEAKER_00 24:10

confidence so high and make her feel 10 foot tall and bulletproof that in when in that situation, she's going to continue to do her job because I built it to that point, right? Uh so it's all about building her up. And even at three years old, I still constantly build her higher and higher, build that that pain threshold and and teach her. It's not to be mean, it's literally to potentially save her life in a real life situation.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yeah, it's you're you're upgrading from you know a Stanley power tool up to a Makita at that point. And that's that is something that we do later on in the development, protection and apprehension dogs. We will once they know the game, they understand it, they're confident, they're they're out there and they're they're getting after it. Especially if we're in like a building, when they get on that bite, we'll back that dog into a corner and we'll put pressure on the dog. The only way for us to back off and to give that dog some relief is if that dog re-drives and re-bites. Yeah, bite stronger, bite deeper, bite harder with a nice, firm, full mouth grip. Boom, we break, we fall away. Same thing, we'll do it in the dark, we'll cover the dog's eyes, we'll reach down and grab the you know, the skin on the ring cage. It doesn't hurt the dog, but that's how you stop. What was that incident that it wasn't too long ago it happened? It was a police canine, and I don't remember what agency it was or even what state it was in, but the suspect had a ladder, and the police canine engaged the suspect, and before he got to the suspect, the he was smashing that ladder on the ground and making loud noises, and he was swinging an object, and the the dog would not engage the target. He kept backing up and retreating because he had never had that pressure put on him in a training environment. You fight like you train. We've spent our entire careers like that. So, you know, that's why in basic training they do the the you know in the army, anyways, they do the uh live fire night drill where you're down, you crawl, you're or you're up, you move, you're going through obstacles, you're going through trenches, you're going through water, and they're firing live tracer rounds over your head because they want to prepare you for war, for conflict. Yeah, it's the exact same thing that we do with the dogs. Now, with that being said, it all falls back to having genetics, having that stable base, having that good base foundation, which a hot topic right now is epigenetics. Epigenetics is basically the study about the environment turn applying that on and off switch to certain genes without actually affecting any of the DNA. So it doesn't change things from a hereditary aspect. But one of the examples is breeding. When you go to select a puppy, if and this is for civilians, this is for professionals, it doesn't matter, the advice stays the same. Uh do your research. Know who they are, how long they've been doing it, what guarantees they offer. Do they specialize in working dogs? Do they understand what drives are? Do have they ever experienced what you're looking for? That's a good starting point. After you do that, go and visit their kennels. When you visit their kennels, most people show up, they see it, they know you're coming, they're gonna clean up, they're gonna make it look pretty, they're gonna put on a good show. What they can't hide is how they do their process for breeding. Do they breed the female, leave her in the kennels? Do they put her in a high capacity area with other females? Is she brought inside and put into a nice calm, quiet environment

Decoy Mechanics And Building Confidence

SPEAKER_01 28:05

where she has stability? Because studies have shown in the theory of epigenetics, I mean, blatantly says that a female that is under stress during pregnancy, those emotions can kind of push down and it predisposes the puppies. So they have more a higher tendency to become anxious, reactive, things like that before they're even born. So if that's the kind of environment that your your kennel that you're buying your dog from is working with, might not be a bad idea to go look somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Yeah. And just because somebody's been breeding for 20 years doesn't mean that they've been breeding good dogs for 20 years, right? Versus you you get a good breeder, and I'll I'll use my puppy uh Iceman, for example, um, Doberman. You you're talking about how a lot of Doberman's those traits are watered down. There's still good lines out there, and they're still good breeders. And I found a really good breeder, and she does a lot of those things that you were just talking about, and she knows what she's doing, right? Like she her her dogs go overseas. A lot of her dogs end up overseas, you know, in in various capacities. A lot of them in working dog scenarios, like like protection dogs overseas and and military police units. She's very good at what she does. So when I was looking for a service dog puppy, she knows what she knows. Having somebody that knows what to look for in those type of dogs is crucial as well. Especially, you know, in that in that case, she's in South Carolina and I live in Illinois. I can't just, I mean, I I could, but that's a long trip to go evaluate a puppy, but she she knows what she's looking for. She's been in the game for a long time, and and specifically in working dogs. So when she says, yeah, and of course, I asked all the all the questions that I generally generally would ask, except she gave me most of the answers before I asked, but she already knew. So that that was a good sign for me, right? Like I don't even really have to ask these questions. She's like, I've done X, Y, and Z, and this is his response to this, and this is how he responds to that, and this and that, and is able to give me all that information that I need to know. And I can say, Yep, that sounds like a good candidate for a service dog. Videos of him in different situations and how he handles things, how he responds and reacts. And yeah, now he's almost eight months old and phenomenal. This dog could potentially be fully trained by a year. Granted, I know once he's a fully trained service dog, he's got a stressful life ahead of him dealing with me, right? So I've given him I've not been as diligent as I would with like a client's dog on training a service dog. I've let him have more time as a puppy. Um, you know, still don't be an asshole. I think he he's got the manners, he's got the obedience. I've introduced him to public access and started laying the foundations of service dog work, but I'm not rushing it.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Let him develop and be a puppy.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Yeah. And and that's that's all crucial in that in that aspect. Um now we've we've kind of hit on it a little bit throughout, but let's let's focus in on like how genetics plays a role in behaviors and and you know, kind of those things you look at in certain breeds, right? And dang, I feel like we've been bullying uh German shepherds, but German shepherds are are a good example. You know, you got really good German shepherds, but a lot of them I would say it's due to breed the the breeding, and sometimes you get those backyard bred, or you know, they're not intentionally bred for for work. Well you rather just certain characteristics.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Another issue that you face, and especially with German shepherds being so popular, and you know, a breed that a lot of people may not expect to be mixed in this conversation is labs. Something that you really need to look out for when it comes to genetics, is line breeding. A lot of people will line breed to lock in those traits, they get desirable traits, they want to seize them, they want to hold on to them, they want all their puppies and all their witters to have them. But something that you need to account for is the coefficient ratio. So usually once you hit, you know, 10, 15, 20% coefficient ratio on line breeding,

Preparing Dogs For Real-World Pressure

SPEAKER_01 33:00

that's where you start seeing, you know, things like inbreeding depression, and you start seeing those behavioral issues where the dog's nervy, the dog's reactive, and they have health issues, you know, they got bad hips. That happens a lot with German shepherds because a lot of the good ones aren't imported, and it's so expensive to import dogs, and it's becoming more and more increasingly expensive to imports.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

And and harder to import them with new regulations. I I want to say, was it 2024? There was new import regulations on importing puppies from uh overseas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

So and it those are all things that you really have to focus in on, and you you need to get those answers from your breeder. You know, hey, is this dog line bred? Okay, how many times, how many generations have you gone through with this? That way you can kind of have, especially if you have the full intent to work either on a professional side or even a hobby side. If you're coming in and you're going to be teaching your dog a skill, you're gonna be working with a professional trainer, the more of those answers we have, the better we can kind of shape you and guide you towards the path towards your goals.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Yeah. And that's not to say that it won't be a good dog, but you do have to look out for those health issues. The the common one with German Shepherds is hip dysplasia. Um, and you know, some of those behavioral aspects that that you see a lot in German Shepherds is reactivity. That's that suspicion is is very high. The confidence is is usually low and needs to be built up or fear. And you could still make it a great dog, but if you don't know what you're doing, you're gonna end up with uh a dangerous dog, but not like the good kind of dangerous, like this dog's gonna protect me, but like dangerous, like it's gonna bite somebody that you don't want or bite you. Yeah, exactly. So that's those those it's those kind of things that you you you've got to look out for. German Shepherd's just an easy one to pick on, but you know, like we're talking before, like pit bulls. Pit bulls, they get a bad rap, but I'd say almost every pit bull we've worked with is the the sweetest dog. But with that, they're often very stubborn when it comes to training, which if you're trying to do something with them, can make it very difficult to reach your training objectives, right? And and that's that's kind of kind of a you can argue whether that those are hereditary, you know, genetics or or what, but I see it so often with certain breeds that you kind of can stereotype what's going on with the dog that uh it it whether it's a stereotype, it's true, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Right. And that's that's kind of why I brought labs into it. Labs are becoming increasingly popular in the working field. Everybody wants a floppy ear dog, it's a PR dog, no one's afraid of them. Um, I worked a detail, I'm not gonna name it, but I worked a detail not long ago that spanned just about a month of

Epigenetics And Smarter Breeding Choices

SPEAKER_01 36:20

seven days a week daily presence. And they were dead set on a floppy ear dog. And and as I was working that detail, I spoke to the event staff and all of the people they called that shot. And I'm like, hey, just out of curiosity, why do you why do you want a floppy ear dog, you know, a a German or a short hair pointer or a lab so much? And they said, Well, we don't want anyone to get accidentally bit. And I said, Well, that makes sense, except for the lab actually falls before German shepherds and Malibaws for accidental or unintentional bites. Now, that's kind of a catch-22 because it's not necessarily just because of genetics, it's also because of the rising popularity of labs. There's more labs in a household and they look friendly. People get them. They're like, my great granddad had a lab, he didn't have to train nothing with it, so I don't need to train nothing with my lab. It sounds good in theory, but as dogs evolve, dogs develop, society evolves, society develops, there's more and more things that trigger these genetic advances in dogs, and you throw line breeding on top of that, and it does create genetic problems. So labs will bite you just as quick, and labs are just as just as nervy and just as protective or resource guarding as German Shepherds can be. It just happens there's more labs than German Shepherds right now.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Yeah, I've I've probably been almost bit by a lab more times than I have a Malinwall or a German Shepherd. Again, yeah, they're they can get very defensive. And again, depending on genetics, stuff sometimes, you know, if they're not intentionally bred, just again, just just we look for certain breeds for certain jobs, right? Like, you know, you you associate labs with with more like service dog work and things like that such, uh, because they're less scary and more uh less intimidating looking. But if you don't get one that again is bred for that purpose, they might not pick up on the things as quickly, and then they get frustrated and are prone to try to bite you just because they and they don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Yeah, something that a lot of people fail to acknowledge on that front. I mean, you nailed it, that people people get laps because they look friendly and they're not they're not intimidating, they kind of fit the picture. Labs are hunting dogs.

unknown 39:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

The reason that they like we they're excelling so well, and they have excelled for decades at scent detection is because they use their nose naturally. That's what they do. They're they come out, they're ready to go, they're ready to run, they're ready to get in the water, going through genetics and hereditary drives and and handouts and things like that. There's a pretty good chance that the generations for several generations before that dog have been in boats, have been around people, have been around gunfire, have been in water, have gone after dead or dying animals and brought them back. One of the biggest issues that I have dealt with when it comes to working quality labs is possession. It trying to get the dog to keep possession

Line Breeding, Health, And Red Flags

SPEAKER_01 40:10

is it can be challenging because I have found that if you get your hands on a lab from a hunting kennel, more often than not, the dog is soft mouthed. So the dog will bring the item back. You throw a tennis ball as a reward, the dog will bring it back, but then the dog drops it. The same thing with a tug. And that is something that we can build on, but you have to have the foundation. If the dog has no desire to go get the reward in the first place, that's something that we're we just really can't do anything with it.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Yeah. So I guess what we've deciphered here is this there is so certain aspects, whether it comes to health aspects or or behaviors, or even down to how we can train that dog, how easily we can train that dog, that are associated with genetics. But again, a lot of it comes from personality, environmentals, and and such forth. So those of you that think that training dogs is is simple and easy, there's a lot that goes into it. And and that's that's really where you you kind of just have to learn what to look for. And I'll I I'll say I I kind of pride myself on being able to decipher that even without looking at the dog, especially certain breeds, right? Like there's certain breeds we work with more than others. And somebody says, well, not to beat up on German shepherds, but use them for example. Well, I've got a German shepherd puppy and it's got some behavioral issues. I can usually stop them right there and I can say, let me guess, it's reactive to dogs and or people. And they're like, Yeah, how'd you know? I'd be like, it's it's a German shepherd. I see this a lot, right? Or even just being able to determine, you know, just from talking to somebody whether it's whether it's a their dog is actually aggressive, or if it's rooted in fear or lack of confidence, or resource guarding, which you know, there's the arguments that resource guarding is a genetic issue. I don't know for sure that that's actually been decided or not, but there is that argument that that is a genetic thing. Be curious to find out for sure. But you know, being able to determine what those different the cause of those uh of that reactivity is and you you get pretty good at it when you see it all the time, uh, to the point that I'm like, oh, I can listen to what what you're telling me on the phone, and I can decipher through somebody that doesn't have a lot of experience in understanding dog behavior, the genetic aspects, and I can determine, yeah, this is what I think your dog is, what's going on with your dog. Yeah, it's it's genetics get very complicated, very complex very quickly. I would say good genetics definitely help when it comes to building a working dog or even just having a really solid pet dog. With that said though, I'm not gonna go get a working line dog if I'm only gonna use it as a pet. So so looking at those different aspects when you're determining what to get as far as a dog, that's that's gonna that's

Labs, Bites, And Possession Issues

SPEAKER_00 44:00

That's going to have an impact. But that's not to say you can't just go get a a rescue and it work out, right? Like we've taken quite a few re-homing dogs that I don't really I have no idea what the dog's genetics are, but I can look at aspects like its temperament and you know its drive and determine hey, you know what? This dog has a really good temperament, it's very confident, it's got maybe a medium drive, not even a high drive, it's medium drive, and I can 100% take this dog and build it into an outstanding service dog. Right. I thought you were gonna say something else with that.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

I think we've pretty much covered genetics. That was uh I think that was a good a good ending point on the genetics and what to look for, what not to look for, and kind of a touching point of if long story short, if you're gonna stereotype a dog, you should know what you're talking about when you do it.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Yeah. And the last thing I'll say on that is if you are in the market looking for whether it's a working dog or you know, just a pet dog, look into those aspects. Really just dive in and and do your homework. Don't just go blindly pick out a dog. And and if you don't know how to do that, I highly suggest finding a reputable trainer and getting their feedback and going from there. But on that note, we'll we'll shift to the to to the closing part of our show. I was looking for for canine-related news articles, and I actually came across four different ones from different parts of the country, all focused on different canines getting ballistic police canines getting ballistic vests. And instead of just focusing on one particular story, you know, it kind of made me think, hey, you know, why is it that these dogs aren't straight out of training getting ballistic vests? And you know, what are what are the advantages to that? And I think it's pretty relevant with you know how many times you see in the news that a police canine was deployed to take down a suspect and it was injured or killed. So figure, you know what, let's let's look into ballistic vests and the impact uh that they have on our law enforcement canines.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Yeah, so I know that the main school that I went to, there is a lot of law enforcement handlers that go through that course as well. Now, with the the number of courses that I did there back to back when I utilized the the military's VRE program, I got to interact with a bunch of them. And there's a lot of charity organizations that'll help with that. What I've discovered, or what I've gathered from my experience from talking to them, and then also the jail that I worked at, I was there still working as a sergeant and a shift commander when they got their very first canine. It's kind of a mix. Some departments just they apply for that grant, they apply for that program, and they just kind of wait and hope. But about 80% of the time, it's a budget constraint. You know, uh everybody's everybody's screaming, defund the police, budgets are being cut left and right, and the first thing to go is there are things that are considered essentially luxury amenities. You know, it's really nice to have a narcotics canine, but it's not necessarily in the eyes of the shot callers for most apartments, it's not really a necessity. And I can make that determination because I'm working with a an arson investigation bureau right now, that

Rescue Candidates And Realistic Goals

SPEAKER_01 48:20

the handler or the the potential handlers, like, hey, listen, we need this dog. Like, this dog is gonna be a game changer, it's gonna save so much time, it's gonna save staff costs, it's gonna make the job faster, easier, safer. We're already booked back. This is gonna help. From the eyes of the people who are boots on ground, it's amazing. But for the people who have to pay for it and the people who have to write the SOPs, the people who have to cover the insurance cost increase, all that stuff takes money. There's a department that again, I'm not gonna name, but that I'm familiar with in Georgia that they support the canine use, but their annual budget annual budget is thirty two hundred dollars. They have three canines.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

That's the price of a bite suit.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

Yeah, that exactly. And that that's about what my bite suit costs me. You know, you throw in the carrying bag for it and you're over budget.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

So I mean, if you think about just the cost of uh of a ballistic vest, and I I've I've priced a few places because you know, the the work that I do from time to time with my canine and anti-trafficking, you know, it would be nice to give her that, give her that extra protection, but you know, on a on a cheap end, you're looking 900 to you know, potentially up to $2,000 just for a ballistic vest. Where to your point, you know, defunding the police and and things like that, you can with that price, you can get multiple, you know, sets of body armor for law enforcement officers. I think it kind of too ties into like we were talking about with our story last week with with that handler and and his story with with his canine, is some parts of the country don't recognize still don't recognize canines as officers. They're just tools. And so when when you're not viewing them as an equal to your your street cops, then why should you invest if they're just expendable to you? Why are you gonna invest that money in ballistic vest? But to that point, there are some really good organizations out there that do help those low budget canine units and departments get ballistic vests for their canine. One that I know of off of top of my head is vested

Why Ballistic Vests For Police K9s

SPEAKER_00 51:10

interest in canines. I know that they provide a lot of vests to those canine officers. So yeah, I I lastly, like what what are the benefits to to to putting a ballistic vest on a canine versus not? Ideally, it it comes down, and in my opinion, is to how much you value that that canine. And and whether, you know, kind of back to what we're talking about, building protection dog is we we want to make them 10 foot tall and bulletproof because the first thing that's gonna happen when you deploy that dog on somebody, usually, is they're gonna try to get that dog off because it does not feel good to get bit by a dog. So they're gonna punch, they're gonna slam it into things, they might even stab or shoot your dog. So that that vest is gonna protect that dog from from getting stabbed or getting shot, which means that that dog can continue on with the service uh versus not now. You just lost a canine. And to your point, if your budget's really low, you might not have the the funds to get another canine, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:32

Yeah, and that's kind of so you you said, hey, listen, and and I I see your viewpoint as well, and I agree with your viewpoint. But to reference last week's last week's podcast, we looked at it from both an operational standpoint and a handler standpoint. We broke it down from a leadership admin point and then what that guy was feeling. Same thing for us as handlers, we want to make sure our partner is safe. From an agency, what they need to look at is protecting their investment. Single purpose dogs are anywhere from $7,500 to 10 and a half. Then when you start moving up into dual purpose or even full service dogs, you start breaking into the 20s and up. So if you pay, if you got a full service dog that does tracking, narcotics, and apprehension, and you have someone that fled the scene and you send the dog on them, do you really, as the agency, do you really want to gamble a $25,000 minimal investment? That's not including the handler's training, that's not including certifications, that's not including the time put into an SOP for the canine unit, training hours, any of that. Public public publications, marketing, any of that stuff's not included. Just $25,000 for the dog itself. Do you really want to gamble that over, you know, a twelve hundred dollar vest? Just spend the money, get the best. And I get it, some agencies do not have the money. But just the same as there's organizations that will donate those vests, and those are limited, by the way. That should be noted. They can only donate so many of those per year. And there's a pool, there's a huge pool for those. But you're also able to fundraise from your community. So we talked about that last last week too. Was that a small department? Was that you know, most small departments are really close with their community? Put a fundraiser on. I was about to say, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

Yeah, I was about to say, if you if you just reached out and said, hey, we need a ballistic vest for our canine, keep them safe. Dude, I'm willing to bet you you you would raise, I would donate that twelve

Budgets, Grants, And Community Support

SPEAKER_00 55:00

hundred dollars for for for your canine, you know, to be protected, because that is a huge investment. And you know, I I think it's it's something that that needs to be addressed more.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

But I think that's I think that's something we should do. We should we should start a collection through the talk shit podcast for ballistic vests for agencies.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

Dude, yeah. You know what? We're gonna make that a our our new thing. We're gonna we're gonna monetize this and collect donations, and all the donations will go straight towards providing ballistic vests towards to our police canines out there. Yeah, yeah, because there's there's no reason that uh you you you don't send officers out without body armor. You you shouldn't be sending your your canines out there either. But on that note, we're gonna wrap up this episode and we will see you guys next week. You guys have a wonderful week.